Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

This is a query from a friend who visited St Patricks the other day

I visited St Patricks in Park Place the other day, and was shown inside the burial vaults. The were 2 graves which the warden didn't know anything about, 1 in particular was a curious one. It was for a fella called Peter Roberts. This fella had a cast iron door leading to the vault and is the only such thing down there. On the iron door is Peter Roberts 1828, and that's all. He doesn't have a clue who he is, why is his vault more prominent than others. He has heard he died in March in 1828 and was a sailmaker, but that's not confirmed.

St Patricks is an RC church founded in 1821. There are two entries in the Burial Registers - one for 8 March and one for 5 April - puzzled about that but I'm willing to accept it's the same man as there are other duplicate names on both pages.

Below for our interest are photographs of the vault door, and obviously the question from the Warden is - can we find anything out about who he is?

http://imgur.com/a/taSG5

1827 Gores has
Roberts Peter, sailmaker, 45, Upper Parliament street
sail room, 39, east side Salthouse dock

Also at East Side Salthouse Dock in 1825

The nearest baptism for age is at St Nicks on 5 May 1782, born 29 April son of Peter and Elizabeth a brewer of milk street, but I think the more likely one is August 1781 born 29 July, son of Peter, a mariner of New Quay.

The brewer died in 1796 and left a will, but it would take a trip to Preston to get hold of a copy

Marriage 16 April 1804 Holy Trinity to Mary McDonnall, witnesses Michael McDonnell and Ellen Wade

The question is how did he have as much money for such a substantial vault and why?

I wouldn't underestimate the possibility of the Roberts family having their own wealth, especially if Peter owned a sail making business.

However, the most likely source of wealth possibly came from the McDonnell family, Mary's father, Michael McDonnell.

Michael McDonnell married Mary Manchester, 1779, St Nicholas, recorded as a Liverpool Trader

Deaths,
Michael McDonnell, 73, Gentleman, Park Lane, 1817, St Pauls.
Mary McDonnell, 72, Park Lane, 1826, St Pauls.

Was Park Lane a wealthy area?

EDIT, Address corrected

Thanks Bert, that sounds a likely clue, only problem is that so far I've only found the son Thomas buried in the vault, there is a possible death for Mary and also another child buried at St Patricks but not in the vault. Would she at least also be in there if the money came from her family?

I'm making a small file with the baptism/marriage/burials printed out and as much of a timeline and background as I can find which will be deposited at the church, possibly even a small article done for the journal, so all details will be included with thanks.

PS Although I don't know it, Park Lake sounds wealthy doesn't it?

Perhaps Mary should be in the Vault, it would only be speculation why she isn't.

Apparently the church was built by subscription, could a major subscriber or family be honoured with a vault? would Liverpool records have anything of that nature?

Park Lane?

Burial: 2 Nov 1817 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Michael McDonnell -
Age: 73 yrs
Abode: Park Lane
Occupation: Gentleman
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1813 - 1818, Page 90, Entry 714
Source: LDS Film 1656375

Burial: 25 Aug 1826 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Mary Mc Donnell -
Age: 72 years
Abode: Park Lane
Notes: Roman Catholic
Register: Burials 1822 - 1832, Page 174, Entry 7
Source: LDS Film 1656376

Grave: 257 St Paul , Liverpool, Lancs.
Michael Mc Donnell
Register: Graves and Catacombs, Page 26
Source: LDS Film 1656376

Grave: 258 St Paul , Liverpool, Lancs.
Michael Mc Donnell
Register: Graves and Catacombs, Page 26
Source: LDS Film 1656376


Blue

Cheers Blue

Last appearance on the available directories of this man Michael McDonnell the book keeper who is recorded in Crooked Lane from 1790 to at least 1811 perhaps he was the same man earlier described as a trader?:-

Gore’s Directory 1811

Michael McDonnel, book keeper, 6, Crooked Lane

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Edit: I just noticed in 1805 he is recorded as Michael McDonald and was a Tallow Chandler so he could be the "trader":-

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709



Blue

Various directories note the 1829 Gore's Directory entry indicates with its mention of Mary & Son that Peter Roberts, sail maker, had died by that time:-

Gore’s Directory 1805

Peter Roberts, harper, 38, Edmund Street

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1807

Peter Roberts, Broker and Victualler, 24, Chapel Street

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1810

Peter Roberts, broker and victualler, 24, Chapel Street
Peter Roberts, sail maker, 12, Mason Street
Peter Roberts, sail room, bottom of Tabley Street

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1811

Peter Roberts, slate merchant and victualler, 23, New Quay
Peter Roberts, broker and victualler, 24, Chapel Street
Peter Roberts, sail maker, 28, Mason Street
Peter Roberts, sail room, bottom of Tabley Street

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1813

Peter Roberts, slate merchant and victualler, 23, New Quay
Peter Roberts, sail maker, 17, Mason Street
Peter Roberts, sail room, 36, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1814

Peter Roberts, slate merchant and victualler, 23, New Quay
Peter Roberts, sail maker, 17, Mason Street
Peter Roberts, sail room, 36, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1816

Peter Roberts, sailmaker, room, 36, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1818

Peter Roberts, sailmaker, 6, Lydia Anne Street
Peter Roberts, room, 34, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1821

Peter Roberts, druggist, 48, Ranelagh Street
Peter Roberts, sailmaker, 1, Sefton Street
Peter Roberts, room, 37, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gores’s Directory 1823

Peter Roberts, druggist, 47, Ranelagh Street
Peter Roberts, sailmaker, room, 37, east side Salthouse Dock
Peter Roberts, cooperage, 69, Seel Street

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Baines’ Directory 1824

Peter Roberts, sail maker, 36, east side Salthouse Dock; house 3, Sefton Street
Peter Roberts, druggist, 47, Ranelagh Street
Peter Roberts, cooper, 70, Seel Street, house Upper Frederick Street

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=384709


Gore’s Directory 1825

Peter Roberts, chemist and druggist, 47, Ranelagh Street
Peter Roberts, sailmaker, 36, Upper Parliament Street
Peter Roberts, sail room, 38, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=241645


Gore’s Directory 1827

Peter Roberts, coal dealer, yard, 82, Burlington Street
Peter Roberts, chemist and druggist, 49, Ranelagh Street
Peter Roberts, sailmaker, 45, Upper Parliament Street
Peter Roberts, sail room, 39, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=241645


Gore’s Directory 1829

Peter Roberts, chemist and druggist, 48, Ranelagh Street
Peter Roberts, (Mary & Son), sailmaker, 5, Duncan Street, St James’
Peter Roberts, sail room, 34, east side Salthouse Dock

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=241645


Edit: Mason Street in these directory entries refers to the Mason Street that was later renamed Cornhill Street and not the Mason Street associated with Joseph Williamson in Edge Hill.


Blue

Thank you both, I appreciate all that background, most sounds good, although I'm going to stick with the Peter whose occupation is sail maker as I know there are other Peters who may have no connection to this family.

But Crooked Lane rings bells for a John Roberts, sail maker in later directories so I guess the connection may be the residence of the McDonnells.

I hope I'm not jumping to conclusions that if the McDonnells were buried in St Pauls then the vault in St Patrick was nothing to do with Peter's father in law, especially since only his name is engraved on the door.

Including Peter and Mary's childrens baptisms that I found also at St Patricks, I'm amazed at just how much bio our forum can put together between us from just a name and date on a vault door and a possible "sail maker" clue.

Peter Roberts, junior, sail maker, married Elizabeth Howard, 1827, St Peter's priory.
witness, Richard Wade was married to Ellen Mcdonnell, Mary's sister.

MaryA wrote:
I hope I'm not jumping to conclusions that if the McDonnells were buried in St Pauls then the vault in St Patrick was nothing to do with Peter's father in law, especially since only his name is engraved on the door.

Michael was buried before St Patrick's was built, Mary would follow him. They may have been subscribers towards the building along with the Robert's.

I think both the Roberts and McDonnells were relatively well off business families so in a position to purchase graves, vaults, contribute to causes etc. By 1832 "Mary & Son" were living at High Park in Toxteth:-

Gore's Directory 1832

Peter Roberts, (Mary & Son), sailmaker, Highpark Bowling green, Wellington Road; sailroom, 6, Salthouse Lane

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=241645


This is an 1840s map showing the Bowling green at High Park with Wellington Road the first road south of Park Road opposite the narrower road running north towards the Bowling green:-




Burials at St Patrick's for Roberts or McDonnell in a vault grave and possible burial elsewhere for Mary:-

Burial: 8 Mar 1828 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancs.
Peter Roberts -
Age: 45
Grave: Vault
Register: Burials 1827 - 1841, Page 1, Entry 18
Source: LDS Film 396378

Burial: 26 Jan 1834 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancs.
Mary Roberts -
Age: 50 Years
Grave: BB54
Register: Burials 1827 - 1841, Page 92, Entry 20
Source: LDS Film 396378

Burial: 19 Nov 1835 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancs.
Elizabeth Roberts -
Age: 40 Years
Grave: Vault
Register: Burials 1827 - 1841, Page 126, Entry 25
Source: LDS Film 396378

Burial: 8 Nov 1838 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancs.
John Mc Donnell -
Age: 15 Years
Grave: Vault
Register: Burials 1827 - 1841, Page 186, Entry 21
Source: LDS Film 396378

Burial: 13 May 1841 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancs.
Thomas Roberts -
Age: 25 Years
Grave: Vault
Register: Burials 1827 - 1841, Page 242, Entry 29
Source: LDS Film 396378


Blue

Marriage at St Patrick's of daughter of late Peter Roberts of Upper Parliament Street:-

Liverpool Mercury, Friday 12 September 1828





Blue

Wow, this is some file I'll be able to put together for the Warden, he has been so disappointed that he knew nothing about Peter and now just look what he will have.

Bert - the Wade family seem to have been quite close, the names are mentioned as baptism sponsors in a couple of cases.

The baptism of one child I'm missing is Peter's son Peter, has anybody come across it?

Liverpool Mercury, Friday 4th April 1828





Blue

Haven't come across Peter's Baptism yet,

The Elizabeth Roberts in the Vault 1835, could be Michael Roberts first wife, Elizabeth Morley, married 1830.

Michael married again in 1839, Sarah Jones, St Peter's Priory. Probably a widow, maiden name Johnston,
1841, living with Ellen Wade, 2 children, Henry McDonnell Roberts, Edward Roberts.