Explanation of Bishop's Transcript needed!

[Gwebb1]

Hi all.
Thanks to the free offer with Ancestry (and thanks to Mary for the notification!), I found the death of my 3x great grandfather in the record sets 'Lancashire, England, C of E Deaths and Burials 1813-1986' and the Bishop's Transcripts, Liverpool, 1850-1859.

He was buried on 16th August 1850, the burial parish being Liverpool (I understand the the Transcripts are 'A Copy of the Register of Burials kept at St Nicholas Church').
However, in the column marked 'Abode', it give his address as Tranmere, Cheshire.
This was where he was married in 1810 and where his children were born so I initially wondered if he had moved back there and was just visiting family in Liverpool when he died. He is on the 1841 census living in Liverpool with his wife, sister-in-law, son and daughter-in-law and his widowed wife is still in Liverpool at the time of the 1851 census, receiving Poor Relief.

However, when I went to order his death certificate, the registration district is given as Wirral Union - I would not have found it except for Mary's tip about the GRO death ages!
I know the Wirral Union was the workhouse on the Clatterbridge Hospital site but have never heard of it as a registration district and why would Liverpool be given as the burial parish on the C of E Deaths and Burials record?

Here's hoping someone can enlighten me!

regards,
Glen

[daggers]

Nobody else seems to be up so I will offer a comment.

It seems that as he died in [or should it be 'on?] the Wirral his death would be registered there. That would be a civil matter, unconnected to church business. Someone may know about Unions as registration districts, but I don't. Perhaps they were counted as a district because of the high number of deaths under their protection.

The burial in Liverpool would probably stem from his earlier life here.

Bishops' Transcripts are only copies of the original church registers, made up once a year and sent by vicars or rectors to the diocesan office. They not as reliable as the registers themselves.

Daggers

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Daggers.

I cannot find the church records for St Nicholas on Ancestry or FindmyPast (must admit I haven't tried any other on-line resources yet) - would I be able to look at them at the Liverpool Record Office and are they likely to give me any more information, I wonder?

Interestingly, the Wirral Union does not seem to be on the GRO registration district reference list although I've just realised I looked at the 'W' section and didn't check the 'U' section. Does seem a long shot though.

I think I might order the death certificate and see what it says. I haven't come across this puzzle before!

G.

[MaryA]

I'm glad you are waiting for the death certificate, it may give you a clue as his death might have been due to illness and he has gone to the Workhouse to be cared for by doctors.

I haven't heard of the Wirral Union as a registration district, but it would seem to be more specific to the Workhouse than just generally Wirral.

Yes you would be able to search the St Nicholas Burial Registers at the Liverpool RO however, generally the BT's are fairly faithful copies of what are in the original. What you may find is that it was a private grave, if there are a number of others buried near the same date in the same grave then it would be general, but it could be that he was brought back to Liverpool to be buried in a family grave.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Mary.

Just been looking at the GRO site for the death of someone else and there are quite a few of these 'Union' registration districts e.g. Swansea Union. I haven't come across any in Liverpool, however.

I'll post another message if the death certificate throws any light on 'Wirral Union'!
I'd be interested to know if any other contributors have come across something similar.

G.

[Blue70]

Strange. My first thought was the GRO had named the sub district in their indexes but Cheshire BMD name the sub district as Birkenhead. Free BMD have it as Wirral. Maybe the addition of the word union is a mistake?


Blue

[Gwebb1]

The plot thickens.

I don't think it can be an error, Blue, because there are so many references to different Unions, although they are not mentioned on the reference district list provided by GRO for information.
Google turns up nothing either.

G.

[Bertieone]

The only example I have is this birth cert 1849, Higher Bebington. not a workhouse birth.



From an little experiment conducted on GRO, births and deaths, using common names such as, Jones, Smith, Williams. It appears the registration district, Wirral Union, was from 1846 to 1850. I think it was made up from parishes within the Wirral Poor Law Union, 54 in total. In 1861, Birkenhead Poor Law Union was formed and incorporated some parishes formally in the Wirral Union. I suspect if William Hughes died in Tranmere for example, this would have been registered in the Wirral Union.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Bertie.
So perhaps William wasn't in the workhouse at all.
I've ordered the certificate and it should be here by the weekend so I'll let you know how informative it is.

G.

[Blue70]

The only example I have is this birth cert 1849, Higher Bebington. not a workhouse birth.



From an little experiment conducted on GRO, births and deaths, using common names such as, Jones, Smith, Williams. It appears the registration district, Wirral Union, was from 1846 to 1850. I think it was made up from parishes within the Wirral Poor Law Union, 54 in total. In 1861, Birkenhead Poor Law Union was formed and incorporated some parishes formally in the Wirral Union. I suspect if William Hughes died in Tranmere for example, this would have been registered in the Wirral Union.

Thanks Bert I never knew it ever existed and Free BMD don't seem to know about it either:-

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/dist ... irral.html


Blue

[Bertieone]

You're welcome, Blue.

I was aware of the Wirral Union registration district, however, one registration district I came across I had never heard of was "Of Wirral in the County of Chester" which appears to have existed around 1837/38. It seems Free BMD have lumped all Wirral registration districts together under "Wirral"

[MaryA]

I'm glad to say you all teach us something new every day, I checked the coverage on FreeBMD the same as Blue did.

[Gwebb1]

Glad my question has expanded the knowledge base of others!
G

[Gwebb1]

Well, I have the death certificate for William Hughes but, as is so often the case, it poses more questions than it answers.

William died on the 13th August 1850 at 2 Mill Lane, Tranmere, which fits in with the St Nicholas burial record saying he died in Tranmere and was buried on 16th August.

It seems he was not in the workhouse: Registration District is Wirral Union and sub-district is Birkenhead.
He died of 'deceased lungs' and the death was certified.

He is described as a ;Gentleman' - can anyone explain what this would mean in the 1850s as a few months later at the time of the 1851 census his widow was on outdoor poor relief in Liverpool!

Indeed, there it would question whether this certificate refers to 'my' William at all except for the Tranmere link (he married there, the children I have traced were born there), the d.o.b. is appropriate (abt 1791) and I can find no other likely records.

Also, the death was reported by Mary Redmond of 4 Mill Road - the 1841 census shows her living in Lloyd's Court, Liverpool (anyone know if this was this anywhere near Kitchen Street where the Hughes were living?) and in Mill Lane, Tranmere on the 1851 census. On both occasions she had a child living with her called Eliza Stevenson, born about 1840. In 1880, Eliza married a widow called John Hughes (d.o.b. 1846) and his father was a James Hughes. The marriage was in Liverpool. Coincidence?
Unfortunately, I've not been able to find those elusive links yet.

Finally, Mary mentioned the possibility of William being buried in a family grave in Liverpool. I can't remember how I go about finding that out - could anyone remind me please?

Regards,
Glen

[Bertieone]

Hi Glen,

In 1841, Mary Redmond lived in Cornwallis Terrace, the map below shows Cornwallis Street near to Kitchen Street.


Thomas Redmond, Warehouseman, married Mary Green, Spinster, 1828, Liverpool.

Son, Thomas Redmond, married Elizabeth Irvine, 1852, Liverpool, Father, Thomas Redmond, Warehouseman.

The term "Gentleman" can be a Landowner, Living off own means or a retired person.
Perhaps an act of kindness by Mary Redmond, rather than have pauper, etc. recorded on death certificate.

[MaryA]

Yes you would be able to search the St Nicholas Burial Registers at the Liverpool RO however, generally the BT's are fairly faithful copies of what are in the original. What you may find is that it was a private grave, if there are a number of others buried near the same date in the same grave then it would be general, but it could be that he was brought back to Liverpool to be buried in a family grave.

It's obviously not certain that it would be a private grave but you should be able to tell from the numbers whether or not it was a general grave.

I did take a look at the BT's thinking that the end column gave the Grave Number but after squinting for about five minutes realised that it really was a blank column and the writing from the next page had bled through. The BT's are usually an honest transcript of what was in the original volume so I don't want to lead you astray, there may be no grave numbers given in the Burial Register or I feel sure they would have been copied to the BT.

Could there be Order Books as well as Burial Books which might give details of the purchase of the grave?

The Catalogue is "doin me ed in" I can't find the appropriate burials, a look at the indexes in the RO is needed to discover just what there is.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, folks.

Given the closeness of Kitchen Street and Cornwallis Street, I think there are too many coincidences for the William Hughes on the death certificate not to be the William I have been researching.

My gut instinct is that there is a link between my William and the Hughes family that Eliza Stevenson married into.
Dates of birth would suggest that James Hughes (father of the John who married Eliza in 1880) would have been about the same age as William's children. William and Catharine married in Tranmere in 1810 and I have found children's baptisms for 1811 to 1815 but cannot find a link with a James.

I then thought James might be William's nephew.
Clearly, I need to find James's and John's births and see where that leads me.

I'll have a go with the burial records next time I am in Liverpool, Mary - sounds as though it could be a long do!
Do you think it would have been common for an ordinary person to have died in Tranmere and then shifted to Liverpool to be buried? Would this not have been quite expensive?

G

[Katie]

It is possible he is buried in a family plot in St. Nicholas. St. Nicholas MI are on Gibson Epitaphs. Available on CD from our Society shop.

[MaryA]

For a Member, I did check the Gibsons, unfortunately no entry for William.

[Gwebb1]

Thanks, Mary and Katie.
I have not come across the 'Gibson Epitaphs' before so please could you fill me in for future reference?

Are there still lines of enquiry I could followup at the RO re: his death/burial?

G.