Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello I'm new and very excited to be here. I would appreciate any assistance with my Liverpool brick wall William and Elizabeth.

After searching for my GGrandfather Charles Garrett Hayes (supposedly born, Dublin with a Scottish Mother) for 10 years, I checked with Bernardos who said he was in their records. He was a 14yr old orphan submitted to Liverpool Sheltering Home May 1892, 3 months after his older brother removed him from Cannon Lester's school where his Uncle master mason William Bulcock (Blackburn) placed him while his mother was ill.

I have not found any Irish roots (turns out he faked it all his life after being indentured to 3 Irish farmers in Quebec Canada until he was released at 18) but, have got back to his grandparents William Hayes (abt 1806 Liverpool) & Elizabeth Lunt (abt 1809 maybe dau of Thomas & Ellen of Litherland). I have 6 possible parents on baptisms records in Liverpool for William Hayes listed as a carter on his marriage record at St Mary Walton on the Hill 1832 no parents listed (where their son Peter was baptised). Litherland is close to Walton and the record said both were of this parish. They lived:
- Etna street covered with a bldg now & green lane
- Jervis street - 2 court
- Boundary rd
A few trees on Ancestry have inserted a William J Hayes Mariner later in this Wm's timeline but in all this Wm's census records he was a carter. No one there has ancestry of this William and Elizabeth Lunt. Thanks

Surnames: Liverpool: Hayes, Lunt

Hi and welcome to the forum.

After reading your message, firstly I amended the heading of the post to read "1806" rather than 1906, I hope this is ok.

Marriages prior to Civil Registration in 1837 contained very little information, certainly not as much as the later certificates did. Walton on the Hill was the major Parish and would certainly have covered Litherland as well as much of the surrounding area too.

Can you please post the references of the couple of censuses you have to make sure we are following the correct family.

Do you know where they were buried? Have you checked for any Wills? not just of William and Elizabeth themselves, but of other Hayes who may have mentioned him/them in their Will and so give a clue.

From the addresses given, the following cenus'

1841, HO107 P520 Bk8
1851, HO107 P2183 F223 P42
1861, RG9 P2655 F100 P56

The children on those census,

Peter, 1832
Margaret, 1835
Mary, 1837
Ann, 1840
Sarah, 1842, GRO reg Liverpool 20 889, MMn, Lunt
Harriet, 1848, GRO reg, Liverpool 20 503, MMn, Lunt
William James, 1855, GRO reg, Liverpool 8b 197, MMn, Lunt

Marriage: 31 Dec 1832 St Mary, Walton on the Hill, Lancashire, England
William Hayes - Carpenter, this Parish
Elizabeth Lunt - (X), this Parish
Witness: John Fox; Charles Musker
Married by Banns by: Jno. Swainson, Curate
Notes: [Groom signed:] William Heyes

http://www.lan-opc.org.uk/

Thank you both for responding (and for correcting my date in the title!)yes you have the right family. Bert you have
Sarah, 1842, GRO reg Liverpool 20 889, MMn, Lunt
Harriet, 1848, GRO reg, Liverpool 20 503, MMn, Lunt
William James, 1855, GRO reg, Liverpool 8b 197, MMn, Lun So I do have the right Wife?! Thank you so much for clearing that up! Are these GRO records on National Archives site? BTW the marriage record listing Wm as a carpenter is incorrect, I sent in a transcription error correction as it clearly states on the record CARTER.

If you have the time you can view his profile/timeline on my public Hayes Ancestry.ca tree I'm not sure if posting the link to his page is allowed here so I understand if you have to remove it. http://person.ancestry.ca/tree/15245644 ... 8915/facts Otherwise here is the gist of my research:

- In Charles' Bernardo's file they listed his parents Peter Hayes and Elizabeth Bulcock including Elizabeth's brother Master Mason William Bulcock Builder & Quarry Owner Employing 60 Men 1 Sandringham rd. The files did not say how 14 yr old orphan Charles ended up in the Liverpool Sheltering home then sent by himself to Canada within weeks, even tho he had married brothers and a prosperous uncle who all probably never saw him again. Using that info I searched back.

These are the only WM 'possible' birth options I could find on LANCs site, FHC & ancestry for a birth about 1806 as is the 1st birth date recorded on the 1841 census:

15 Sept 1804 St James, Toxteth
Bapt nov 11 1804 Thomas & Mary Hayes occupation SAWYER abode Newbird St . 2nd child in family

30 Dec 1804 St Nicholas
William Haye - son of William Haye WATCHMAKER & Elizabeth (formerly Johnson) Bapt 24 Feb 1805 Plumb st.

10 Feb 1805 St Nicholas
Register: Baptisms 1805, Entry 157 Source: LDS Film 1068889 BIRTH Feb 3 1804 in the column marked Name of Father is Elizabeth Hayes Parliament St and name of wife 'SPINSTER' SINGLE UNWED MOTHER. I traced this woman's family back to a tailor in Temple Ln. This would mean Wm got his surname from his mother a woman I found a couple of death index records for an Elizabeth hayes thinking she may have died early and of course no census records during that time to link Wm with any parents.

5 Mar 1805 St Nicholas
bapt July 29 1812 ALONG WITH Margaret Hayes b Oct 29 1806 parents James Hayes COACH MAKER queen st Mary Lightbourne

7 Oct 1807 St Nicholas
Bapt Oct 14 1807 son of Robert Hayes CARTER Garden st & Sarah Emmett

1809 St Nicholas
birth 20 Jan , bapt 10 Mar John Hayes & Elizabeth Owens

The only real 'fact' I had to go on was his father's occupation as a CARTER (yes so loved that last WDYTYA UK segment!)

1) The only marriage between a Wm Hayes CARTER and an Elizabeth (as last name not given in any of the census etc) was with Elizabeth LUNT at Walton on the Hill
2) Peter's baptism at Walton on the Hill father Wm Hayes CARTER
3) I have the 1841, 51, 61 census with the right family although wm and liz ages are different on every one the children's ages pretty much match. Wm is listed as a CARTER on 51 and 61, the '41 census does not list occupations. I could not find a '71 census return for this Wm and I believe that is why other people have been taking the Wm J. Hayes MARINER & Elizabeth in EVERTON family and inserting it into my Wm's timeline. '81 census all I could find was: KIRKDALE Wm 76 PORTER (his age lines up), Elizabeth 76 wife, Harriet 23 daughter(10 years too young,) these parents are same age I do not think this is them but of course so many mistakes on census returns who knows.
4) 1854 Son Peter's marriage to Elizabeth Bulcock: Elizabeth Bulcock-COPPERAS HILL & Peter Hayes- MILLER JERVIS St both signed with an X. Wm Bulcock STONEMASON & Wm Hayes CARTER listed
5) Peter died in 1881 47 Cornwallis St. buried E. Parochial Cemetery Rice Lane Walton have not been able to find this old cemetery's records but did find the article with the image of the ghost and wished the reporter looked at the grave she was looking at.

Wm and Eliz were of the courts/poor class as well as son Peter and Eliz so doubt any will existed? I did discover that Charles middle name GARRETT came from his 1877 Christening by Rev Charles Garrett Pitt St. Chapel Methodist mission notable figure who helped the poor of Liverpool Charles mother Elizabeth had a little service there when she died.

I have not been able to find a burial/death record for either Wm or Elizabeth there were a couple of Wm Hayes deaths recorded in the indexes but with no info I felt they were rabbit holes. I am not even sure if I have Elizabeth LUNT correct or if the one from Litherland is correct. I so appreciate getting actual Liverpool assistance because the other trees on ancestry do not have any solid evidence either. I am becoming a paid member because what you are doing is so important especially to the descendant of a British Home Child who was so ashamed he pretended to be someone else as so many did. I actually discovered the original location of the home in Hamilton Ont where his sister Margaret was sent by digging into old fire route maps so the archives there have that now. I will create new post on my search for her as she went back to Liverpool.

Hi Alannah,

I suspected a transcription error on Lancs, but I have to leave the information as it is.

I agree, the 1871 census, William J is not the correct family for your research.

Register and log in to this site (GRO) for birth & Death registrations,

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

Thank you Bert sooo much for all your confirmation.

Bert I have another question. My apologies You checked the dates from the census on the GRO birth records I should go to bed! Ignore everything I originally asked below sorry to bother you.

All the GRO site will let me check is births and deaths and only years available. How did you access the census records that listed MNM I have never seen that before on FSearch or Ancestry? Thanks

Alannah,
It's no bother.

There's another couple of children born to the Hayes/ Lunt combination who never made it to a census, if you haven't already come across them.

Elizabeth, 1837, West Derby, 20 483
William, 1845, West Derby, 20 1051

Bert you are so good at this how did you find them? I have a vague memory of running across a William yesterday but I discovered you really have to have your dates narrowed down when searching for deaths on the gro. I decided to switch focus to the time period where they are missing i.e. 1871/81 and the 3 youngest children who may still have been with them for clues to early data have you any suggestions? I will look for these children who must have died now in lancs etc I haven't seen them on anyone else's tree. Thank you so much for helping me keep this moving forward.

Alannah,

I couldn't find the family anywhere in 1871, if the family or address has been missed for whatever reason, there's nothing that can be done. Apart from Peter's marriage I haven't found any of the others marrying yet, though not all marriages are online.

If it is the correct family in 1881 and a mistake has been made on Harriet's age, and no Harriet was registered in Liverpool or West Derby who would be 23 ish in 1881.

Deaths after that date that are near to their births,

William Hayes, 1886 aged 84, Liverpool
Elizabeth Hayes, 1885, aged 78, West Derby

It does depend on who was registering deaths whether they knew their correct age.

Thank you for your confirmation again couldn't find deaths or marriages for any one else either although I haven't checked the new elizabeth and william but suspect a lot of dying or something going on. I ordered the death record in 1868 as the pattern sounds similar as in Peter's case. When he died, his wife Elizabeth got sick and youngest two children ended up as BHC's in Canada during which time she died. It's worth a gamble i think as the 1881 with harriet i seem to remember that the william j hayes had a harriet too different age which is another reason they ended up in other trees. I think its time to give old william a rest for now and move on to his grandaughter Margaret the BHC who returned to liverpool an unwed mother and I think ended up in that inmate place. You helped me so much to move a little more through the william wall. I'm very grateful. I'll post margaret hayes this string of Hayes' were very unfortunate like so many others and I can't see that Margaret and Charles 4 married brothers were even looking for them nor their descendants on ancestry who didn't know they existed...I feel compelled.