Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I've hit a brick wall in trying to find evidence of marriage of my Great Grand Parents, can anyone help/advise me.
The details are:-
Grandfather James Putt b1832 Salcombe Devon living in Liverpool from about 1851
Grandmother Jane Langan b1833 Liverpool possibly a widow Jane 'Neil living in Liverpool, Father James Langan mother Mary Delaney.
Assumed marriage was between 1850/1856 since their first born son b1856.
From 1856 I've traced them to 1910 when they had both died.

I'm a member of Ancestry but have just got nowhere with this one.

Any help would be appreciated.

Added afterwards
Jane Langan nee O'Neil.

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Can you give us details of the censuses you have them on, including children and references so that we can see the whole picture.

Hello Roy, Free BMD have a marriage in Sept qtr 1851 of Jane LANGEN to John O'Neill also listed in Lancs BMD. W Dby R.O or Registrar attended which would mean an R.C marriage. She would be nee Langen/Langan not O'Neill.
Edward Putt bn Sept qtr 1856.

Tina,
Edward belongs to Edward Putt and Anna Langan, born and died, Sept qtr, 1856.

Might have to accept no marriage took place between James and Jane, most likely because Jane wasn't free to do so if still married to John O'Neil but separated for whatever reason.

MaryA wrote:Hi, welcome to the forum.

Can you give us details of the censuses you have them on, including children and references so that we can see the whole picture.

1861 censusI have John Potts (Putt) grandson b3 April 1856 aged5 staying with his grandfather James Langan widower and his family.
Also in the 1861 on the 3rd Aug I have wedding cert for Mary Langan/William Wilson with Jane Putt as a witness.

James Putt/ Jane Langan in the 1860s have two more children James b1865 and Jane b25 Dec1867 and from 1871 census and the all the following census's they all are shown.

Tina wrote:Hello Roy, Free BMD have a marriage in Sept qtr 1851 of Jane LANGEN to John O'Neill also listed in Lancs BMD. W Dby R.O or Registrar attended which would mean an R.C marriage. She would be nee Langen/Langan not O'Neill.
Edward Putt bn Sept qtr 1856.

I have also found this but can't be 100% about it. A lot of what is shown on the marriage doc would fit but I would know for certain if Jane's mother was named as Mary Delaney. Only her first name is given, Mary.
Someone who tried to help me said they found that a John O'Neil died at sea in about 1851 or a little later but didn't show me any document to this effect. if this is correct however then as you say Jane would now be a widow and I also know some people at the time didn't actually get married for various reasons. But did get married later, maybe a few years later.

This may be correct but the problem James Putt would have is that coming from Salcombe Devon he probably wasn't a catholic and Jane O'Neil (maybe ) nee Langan was and she came from a Liverpool Irish catholic family who lived and worked in and around the South Liverpool docks. So he would have great difficulty in getting to know Jane unless the knew him, which is possible. Add to that he was a mariner like his brothers and sailed schooners up to Liverpool. Also from 1856 all Putts are baptised , married and buried in the catholic church.

Bertieone wrote:Tina,
Edward belongs to Edward Putt and Anna Langan, born and died, Sept qtr, 1856.

Might have to accept no marriage took place between James and Jane, most likely because Jane wasn't free to do so if still married to John O'Neil but separated for whatever reason.

I have also found this but can't be 100% about it. A lot of what is shown on the marriage doc would fit but I would know for certain if Jane's mother was named as Mary Delaney. Only her first name is given, Mary.
Someone who tried to help me said they found that a John O'Neil died at sea in about 1851 or a little later but didn't show me any document to this effect. if this is correct however then as you say Jane would now be a widow and I also know some people at the time didn't actually get married for various reasons. But did get married later, maybe a few years later.

This may be correct but the problem James Putt would have is that coming from Salcombe Devon he probably wasn't a catholic and Jane O'Neil (maybe ) nee Langan was and she came from a Liverpool Irish catholic family who lived and worked in and around the South Liverpool docks. So he would have great difficulty in getting to know Jane unless the knew him, which is possible. Add to that he was a mariner like his brothers and sailed schooners up to Liverpool. Also from 1856 all Putts are baptised , married and buried in the catholic church.

I can't say whether or not John O'Neil died at sea, previous to his marriage he was a Cooper, 1851 census, would he give a good trade up for the sea?

Bertieone wrote:I can't say whether or not John O'Neil died at sea, previous to his marriage he was a Cooper, 1851 census, would he give a good trade up for the sea?

i don't really know but a cooper often did go to sea but like you say at the time it was a good steady job you could at home.

Thank you for help with this, the marriage record is the one peace missing in all of my research.

Sorry to anyone who can't open the link, I'm hacked off with photobucket,

Marriage of John O'Neil and Jane Langan, can anyone name the address below 32 Fisher St

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2182/ ... PUBJs=true

Thank you

Bertieone wrote:Sorry to anyone who can't open the link, I'm hacked off with photobucket,

Marriage of John O'Neil and Jane Langan, can anyone name the address below 32 Fisher St

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2182/ ... PUBJs=true

Thank you

I'm voting for Mann Street, just around the corner from Fisher Street. First letter definitely looks like an 'M' looking at the name 'Mary'

The other addresses - Harrington Street, Fisher Place etc - are all in Liverpool 8 area - the one below Fisher Street looks like first two letters are a capital "M" and a lower case "a" .... rest is not clear ... so 14 Ma ?.

Could be Mann Street - just around the corner from Fisher Street - best I can do I am afraid.

Regards,

Denis

Thanks, John, Denis,

Unfortunately I couldn't find the people there I was hoping for.

Bertieone wrote:Tina,
Edward belongs to Edward Putt and Anna Langan, born and died, Sept qtr, 1856.

Might have to accept no marriage took place between James and Jane, most likely because Jane wasn't free to do so if still married to John O'Neil but separated for whatever reason.

Hello Bert, can you tell me where you obtained the evidence of Edward Putt and Ann Langan since I'm looking for the marriage of James Putt and Jane Lagan. There might be a connection but i have found similar names before but turned out to be different people which adds to the confusion.

Roy

Hi Roy,

Anc Link,


http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... PUBJs=true

Bertieone wrote:Hi Roy,

Anc Link,


http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... PUBJs=true

Hello Bert,

Thanks for link, something odd here John Putt is the first born of James Putt and Jane Langan possibly nee O'Neil or even O'Neil nee Langan in 1856. My Latin is useless so I get confused as to what is what. But the names Langan and O'Neil both appear on this document. James Putt my great grandfather had several brothers who were Mariners also, James being the eldest and one of the brothers was Edward.

So, I'm not sure what this document is telling me. The plot thickens!!!

Regards,

Roy

Edward Putt, born 11 July 1856, baptised 18 July 1856, son of Edward Putt and Anne (maiden name Langan) Godmother Joanne O'Neil, no godfather named.

Thanks Mary,

Roy, this is handy,

https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Latin_ ... #Key_Words

Bertieone wrote:Thanks Mary,

Roy, this is handy,

https://familysearch.org/wiki/en/Latin_ ... #Key_Words

Bert,

Thanks for that. There is something here as the Langan's and the O'Neil's are connected and Joanna Langan is Jane Langan. The children of James and Jane are, John Putt b 3 April 1856. James Putt b 1865 and Jane Putt b 25 Dec 1867 in all cases the parents are James Putt and Jane Langan.

I wonder if the connection is Edward Putt who seems to have first married into the Langan family via Ann. I know Jane Langan had several sisters Bridget and Ann. In 1861 Ann Miller nee Langan is a widow with a daughter Jane aged 10. It's all a mystery at the moment, I'll have to do some re-checking I think there is another sister who has Ann as part of her full name. People in the past seem to always use family names over and over again whereby cousins have the same forenames, confusing.

Regards,

Roy

Hi Roy,

Just wondering if the following will take us anywhere,

A marriage in Liverpool, 1841,

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/ss ... &h=2681012

John Adams, Widower, Mariner
Full Age
Marriage
31 Oct 1841
Liverpool, St Peter
Spouse
Ann Langan, spinster
Fathers
John Adams, Mariner
Edward Langan, Labourer

Possible marriage? 1845, St Thomas, Devon

Edward Putt, Ann Adams

Edit, it appears they did marry, but children born, MMn, Adams.