Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi all, my wife's family are driving me mad (no comments please, I mean the dead ones ).

The 1911 census shows her paternal great grandfather, Clifford (George) Smith living in Pyne or Tyne Street in Kirkdale. His spouse is Alice Maud Smith. He was born in Warwickshire, she in Poplar, London. Census had them married in 1906. After weeks of trying to find marriage records, one of my wife's elderly aunts informed me that they never married, and she left him for a new life in Australia. After a lot of messing around, I ended up getting a copy of my wife's grandfather, George Clifford Smith's birth record (1907 and on the census), which gave the mother's maiden name as Groves, so that solved that one, as there were literally hundreds of Alice Maud's born in Poplar in the mid 1880's! A look at the GRO birth records for 1907 also confirms Groves as being his mother's maiden name (West Derby 08b, 406). Two other Ancestry trees has Alice Maud's maiden name as Perry (see below for Nelly), but as I have the copy birth certificate, I have messaged them with the information.

My problem is with the rest of the siblings. The census has a Dora May Smith aged 1 at the time of the census, but no trace in GRO of her with Groves as the mother, only a Parry (West Derby 1909 08b, 441). An Ancestry tree has a Dora May Smith marrying a Thomas Stanley Wade in 1935. I would probably need a copy marriage certificate to check the father's details to confirm it is the correct Dora.

A similar story with Walter R Smith. Presumably born after 1911 as he was not on the census (it showed 2 children born and 2 living, so George and Dora), but no record on GRO or freebmd for a Walter Smith with Groves as mother, apart from one in Camberwell in 1917). I have also done a search on freebmd for just 'Smith' with Groves as the mother, but no male born in Liverpool where the family always lived. One Ancestry tree has him married to a Nelly Perry in 1924 (who incidentally is on the 1911 census with them as sister in law, single and aged 18). The problem is, he is in the tree born in 1912, so would only be 12 when he married, which is most unlikely!

I've had a look on FMP, but nothing different. Can anyone give me any other direction Sorry for the rambling!

Thanks,

John

Without having done any searches as yet, it may be that the children were registered under the mother's name, if she went to the Register Office and was asked if she was married, replying No without Mr Smith being in attendance, she would have had to give her own name for the registration.

I'd be tempted to get Dora May's birth certificate, to see the mother's full name and father.

MaryA wrote:Without having done any searches as yet, it may be that the children were registered under the mother's name, if she went to the Register Office and was asked if she was married, replying No without Mr Smith being in attendance, she would have had to give her own name for the registration.

Thanks Mary; can't see any Dora May Groves with mother's maiden name of Groves in either GRO or freebmd

JohnnyO wrote:An Ancestry tree has a Dora May Smith marrying a Thomas Stanley Wade in 1935. I would probably need a copy marriage certificate to check the father's details to confirm it is the correct Dora.

As this took place at St Cuthbert, Everton it won't be too difficult to get the details, I could but it wouldn't be until next week.

Bertieone wrote:I'd be tempted to get Dora May's birth certificate, to see the mother's full name and father.

Hi Bert, as mentioned, only Dora Smith born in Liverpool/West Derby around that time had mother's maiden name of Parry. I suppose I would have to pay the £9 odd to either prove or disprove that the father's name was Smith.

The rest of the Smith family before her great grandfather are even more elusive, but that's for another time!

MaryA wrote:

JohnnyO wrote:An Ancestry tree has a Dora May Smith marrying a Thomas Stanley Wade in 1935. I would probably need a copy marriage certificate to check the father's details to confirm it is the correct Dora.

As this took place at St Cuthbert, Everton it won't be too difficult to get the details, I could but it wouldn't be until next week.

Many thanks Mary. Are the details on microfiche in Liverpool library?

JohnnyO wrote:

Bertieone wrote:I'd be tempted to get Dora May's birth certificate, to see the mother's full name and father.

Hi Bert, as mentioned, only Dora Smith born in Liverpool/West Derby around that time had mother's maiden name of Parry. I suppose I would have to pay the £9 odd to either prove or disprove that the father's name was Smith.

The rest of the Smith family before her great grandfather are even more elusive, but that's for another time!

From the little exercise we done last week, the father's name will be Smith.

Is the mother's name, Alice Maud Parry?

If not, who's the mother?

Bertieone wrote:

JohnnyO wrote:

Bertieone wrote:I'd be tempted to get Dora May's birth certificate, to see the mother's full name and father.

Hi Bert, as mentioned, only Dora Smith born in Liverpool/West Derby around that time had mother's maiden name of Parry. I suppose I would have to pay the £9 odd to either prove or disprove that the father's name was Smith.

The rest of the Smith family before her great grandfather are even more elusive, but that's for another time!

From the little exercise we done last week, the father's name will be Smith.

Is the mother's name, Alice Maud Parry?

If not, who's the mother?

Hi Bert, mother as far as I know should be Alice Maud Groves, if all 3 children have the same mother (George Clifford and Dora May anyway, not sure about Walter). Father's name will be Smith

Thanks,

John

JohnnyO wrote:
St Cuthbert, Everton

Many thanks Mary. Are the details on microfiche in Liverpool library?[/quote]
Yes they should be there, let me know if you get it before I do.

Perry/Parry, could be a slip of the pen or eye?

MaryA wrote:

JohnnyO wrote:

St Cuthbert, Everton

Many thanks Mary. Are the details on microfiche in Liverpool library?[/quote]
Yes they should be there, let me know if you get it before I do.

Perry/Parry, could be a slip of the pen or eye?[/quote]

Might try to pop in this evening Mary or on Saturday, but if not will let you know. My wife's grandy is definitely Alice Maud Groves as per birth certificate and can't understand why Dora May isn't shown on GRO as the same. I know that the census has Nelly Perry as sister in law, and that it normally states in relation to the head of the household, so unless Clifford George left Alice Maud Smith after 1907 when grandfather was born, and then shacked up with Alice Maud Perry (convenient but confusing, as there was a lady called Perry born in Poplar around the same time as Groves, both Alice Maud). Saying that, wouldn't she be stepdaughter, not sister in law. Again, it states on the census that they were married around 1906

Walter Smith married a Nelly Perry (b1895 so a couple of years out on the 1911 census) in Stourbridge in 1924. The Smith family were originally from that part of the world. Walter you would think must have been born around the same time, but to what mother?

My brain hurts!

JohnnyO wrote: My brain hurts!

I'm sympathising!

Because of the year, I would suggest you either check the catalogue or send the Reading Room a quick email to make sure the microfilms go up to that date, otherwise you would need to book a place in the Archive.
https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/arch ... y-history/

My thoughts are,

If Dora May has a mother's maiden name as Alice Maud Parry/Perry then a few questions could be raised. Has there been a clerical error on one of the birth certs? perhaps there was confusion when registering the births, Alice Maud may have been born "Groves" and her mother later married a Parry/Perry. etc.

If Alice Maud is not on Dora May's birth cert, the 1911 census could be incorrect, or she might have had 2 children and one of them was not there on census night.

Thanks for your thoughts both.
Mary, thanks, I'll check with the reading room.

Bert, the 1911 census has the (unmarried) Smiths as having 2 children, both alive, and both are shown on the census, they being George and Dora May. Apart from who is Dora's mother, Walter is the other issue. No idea where and when he was born or who his mother was.

I'm hoping when i speak to the elderly aunt that she may be able to shed some light on things.

A bit of an update. I've had a message back from an Ancestry member confirming that Dora May Smith did marry Thomas Wade, but will still go to Liverpool and check the records if they are there.

I also messed up, as my wife's great grandfather was Clifford Walter Smith, not Clifford George Smith as I wrote. That would make more sense with him having a son called Walter.

Apparently Clifford Walter Smith was kicked out of the army for cheating, and Alice Maud (whichever one it was) used to get beaten by him, hence her running off to Australia. One of the Smith men changed their christian name as he didn't like it. I have a link to the wife's great great grandfather as Thomas Prickett Clifford Smith, who married Clara Amelia Reeves in Feb 1869, and Clifford Walter was born in July that year (oops!).

Ancestry shows a death for Dora May Wade in Q2 1977. The image on FreeBMD for this death gives her birth date as 3 October 1909 so this ties in with the birth record with mother's name of Parry.

Alison

Alison C wrote:Ancestry shows a death for Dora May Wade in Q2 1977. The image on FreeBMD for this death gives her birth date as 3 October 1909 so this ties in with the birth record with mother's name of Parry.

Alison

Thanks Alison. I was fairly certain that Clifford Walter Smith's other half was Alice Maud Perry, due to his sister in law Nelly Perry being in the same household in 1911. That was until I got the copy birth certificate for his son, which has the mother as Alice Smith, formerly Groves. That makes an Alice Maud Groves his mother in 1907, and Alice Maud Perry as Dora May's mother in 1909, unless they are somehow the same woman. I can't find where Walter Smith fits in, as I can't see any records with a mother's name of either Groves or Perry/Parry in any records.

I also had a look on FreeBMD for any Alice Maud born in Poplar about 1885, as per the 1911 census. Between 1883 and 1886 there must be over 100 Alice Maud's, but none a Perry, Parry or Groves.

I suspect Walter Smith doesn't fit in anywhere.

The 1924 marriage, Walter R Smith and Nellie O Perry is Walter Robert Smith, son of John Smith/ Amelia, nee Davies.

Nellie O Perry is Ellen Olive Perry, born, 1900, Stourbridge and died Birmingham, mothers maiden name, Evans.

If it was thought the possible link was with Nellie Perry living with Alice Maud Smith, 1911 census, confusion may have been brought about through a 1901 census entry, Ellen O Perry, bn, Poplar.

Its actually, Ellen C Perry,

Ellen Caroline Perry, Bn, 1896, Poplar, mothers maiden name, Holmes

Daughter of, Walter Samuel Perry/Ellen Louisa Holmes, 1895, Mile End

Hi Bert, thank you so much for providing that information. I did see an entry for Nelly C Perry and wondered if the 'O' had been transcribed as a 'C'.

Talking to one of my wife's aunt today (not the oldest who I do need to speak to) she was saying that there was a Nelly Perry who was married to a Walter, but as you rightly say, not to Walter R Smith. I've had a quick look through freeBMD for a Smith marrying an Ellen Perry, but nothing from an initial search.

I've deleted Walter R Smith and Nelly O Perry and links from my Ancestry tree until I clarify things!

Sorry no image as the camera on my phone has died a death and the entry was in the original registers, not on microfilm.

16 November 1935 St Cuthbert, Everton
Thomas Stanley Wade, 30, Bachelor, Baker of 14 Bagnall Street
Father Thomas Wade (Deceased) Baker
Dora May Smith, 26, Spinster, 83 Wye Street
Father Clifford Smith, Undertakers Agent
Both signed their names
Witnesses Robert H? Smith and Esther F Wade