Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello, and thank you for allowing me to join this forum.

I wonder if anyone could help with suggestions on what type of records one could research when you have been unable to find a birth record anywhere? Please note I am not asking for anyone to do the research just help on where I could look next, as I have not been successful in finding a birth record for my 3x great granddad. Census records say he was born at Ince Blundell, and I know he lived at Carr Houses. I also know he worked at Blundell Hall, and is buried in the graveyard down the road from the Hall. I have lots of info on the generations after him, and I'm confident I know his parents, but would prefer to nail that with some proof. Any suggestions would be most grateful. I have not been able to find anything in the parish records.

Thank you

donnybelle

Hi and welcome to the forum. You haven't mentioned the date you are searching for, obviously before 1837 it is parish records and not birth records that are available.

Did he have any siblings and have you found records for them? Have you found a marriage for the couple you feel are the probable parents?

In this kind of situation we would be thinking that perhaps he was illegitimate and recorded under the mother's name rather than the fathers. If you think this is possible then I would check the Lancashire Archives at Preston (online catalogue) to see if there was a Filiation Order in the Parish Records.

We would appreciate the opportunity to help if you would give us a few more details and also tell us which parishes you have searched as the mother may have come from a different parish and perhaps the mother went home to her family for the birth.

Hi, thank you for reply. From his death date 6/4/1875 and his age at death 57, it would seem he was born 1818 ish. I have a marriage record for his parents of 21/2/1814 at Liverpool St Peters, Church Street. According to his gravestone, he had a sister, and no I haven't been able to find her birth record either. I have been to Preston archives (twice) and after requesting assistance from a very kind archives officer, was advised I might get more success at Liverpool archives. I have visited there 3 times, but with no success so far. The last time I visited, I checked all the parish records (central Liverpool) that would cover his approximate birth year but didn't find him. He is buried in the graveyard down the road from the Holy Family church. I believe this was a Roman Catholic Church.
Thank you.
Donnybelle

Would you be willing to share names? Some of us have copies of Directories that they may be listed in maybe giving a clue as to the areas they were living at the time.

He may have been baptised RC Ancestry's Liverpool RC collection doesn't cover this area I'm wondering if there was an RC chapel mission at the hall at the time of the birth and his baptism may appear in their records. The family surname may appear on other RC records such as the 1767 'Returns of Papists' Roman Catholic 'census'.


Blue

Similar question asked by blue43 about RC records in the Sefton area:-

https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... =2&t=11497

Links about RC records:-

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... cromla.htm

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... seflib.htm


Blue

Hi Everyone, thank you for taking the time to reply. The person I am researching is my 3x great granddad Charles Shaw.
Born 1818 ish. Married 6/8/1838 to Ann Tidmarsh both resident at Ince Blundell. He died on 6/4/1875 and his gravestone was erected by Thomas Weld Blundell. From the inscription, it appears that Charles had a sister named Jane who would have been born about 1820. It is possible (though I have no concrete proof) that Charles may have had a brother James too.

Date on tombstone states 6th April 1875 aged 57, but death certificate states 8th April 1875 and 56 years age

Charles and Ann had 10 children, all described as birthplace of Ince Blundell. He was still described as a tailor on the birth certificate of my 2x great granddad James Shaw born in 1842. So it could have been just after this that he went to work for Mr Weld-Blundell.

His probable parents were James Shaw and Ann Coates nee Bibby married 21/2/1814.

Census wise in 1841 he was at Carr Houses Ince Blundell, and occupation was tailor (James was a tailor also)
In 1851 and1861 his address was Carr House Lane West Derby, occupation agricultural labourer; on his tombstone, T.Weld-Blundell describes him as "during 33 years, a skilful, zealous and trusted assistant of his attached master T. Weld-Blundell esq."

Charles was the informant of his mothers death in January 1838, she was described as wife of James Shaw, tailor.
James Shaw (tailor) was named as grooms father on Charles' marriage certificate.
Charles was named as informant of his fathers death in July 1849.

Thank you Blue, I will check out those links.

donnybelle

If Thomas Coates married Ann Bibby, 1810, Liverpool,

Daughter, Jane, brought into the marriage with James Shaw,






Jane Coates

Birth Date:
16 May 1811
Baptism
19 May 1811
St Mary's, Lancashire, England
Father
Thos Coates
Mother
Ann Coates

?

Name:
Thomas Coates
Marriage Date:
9 Sep 1810
Marriage Parish:
Liverpool, St Peter
Spouse's Name:
Ann Bibby

Possible burials?

Burial: 25 Jul 1849 St Helen, Sefton, Lancashire, England
James Shaw -
Age: 57 yrs
Abode: Ince Blundell
Notes: [Roman entered in Minister's column]
Register: Burials 1841 - 1858, Page 92, Entry 732
Source: LDS Film 1657556

Burial: 21 Jan 1838 St Helen, Sefton, Lancashire, England
Ann Bibby -
Age: 50
Abode: Ince-Blundell
Notes: Roman
Register: Burials 1813 - 1840, Page 191, Entry 1522
Source: LDS Film 1657556


Blue

Wow, hi Blue, I found the James burial, but wouldn't have thought of looking for Ann as Bibby, and she did die in January. Thank you.


Hi Bert, sadly Jane Coates died aged 9 months, within a month of her father Thomas in 1812. But thank you for image, as it confirms Ann's father as whom I thought. Thank you.

Donnybelle

Sefton Information and Archive Service at Crosby Library have a photocopy of the Ince Blundell RC Baptism register. As far as I remember it has the early 1800s in it. It might be worth contacting them to see if they can find Charles Shaw's baptism.

Thanks for that Hilary, I have been to Crosby library, though it is a while ago. I can't remember whether I viewed that particular record or not, so I will try contacting them, thank you.

donnybelle

Well folks, we're off to Crosby library and St Helen's Sefton on Wednesday. Hoping to get a bit further with your helpful suggestions, thank you. X

Good luck!

Enjoy your day out tomorrow - and I hope you find Charles.

Crosby library not only hold a copy of the Ince Blundell baptisms but they also hold very extensive transcriptions of the registers of St Helen's Sefton.

If you can't find Charles in Ince Blundell you'll need to look around for other RC churches in the area that have registers for the time you want.

Thank you for your good wishes MaryA and Fledge. We had an enjoyable day, starting with a walk round the graveyard at St Helens Church, Sefton. We didn't go very far before we found the memorial stone for Charles Shaw buried in 1819 and James (son of Charles) buried in 1849. Then on to Crosby library to search for the elusive Charles (born 1818/1819)
We re-checked the records for Holy family church at Ince Blundell, plus the records for St Helens, Sefton, + Lydiate, St Mary's Little Crosby, Our Lady of Compassion, Formby and West Derby Chapel. No success I'm afraid. Don't know when we will get through again as it's about 200 mike round trip for us and work gets in the way lol. But we will continue the search at some point. Thanks again.

Wendy

Finding a grave made it at least a successful trip. If you ever do manage the trip again try to check when the church is open as it's a very interesting building.

Thanks Mary, we will probably come over again, not sure when, but yes it would be nice to have a look in church.

Have you any ideas on where Charles' father originated from?

My other thought would be St Benet's at Netherton which was built in 1793 but there was some sort of chapel there earlier. However their register for baptisms starts in 1742 and ends in 1784 which is too early for Charles but it might have his father.

Sometime in September I will be going to Lancashire Archives and will have a look at the St Benet's registers if you would like?