Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am looking for a marriage in Feb 1837 at St Nicholas, the first record for that year is July 1837 and when you go back to the index the previous years record is for 1831, does this mean the actual records are missing or have Liverpool RO just not supplied them to Anc? There is a BT but I was hoping for a little more information from a PR.

Try on lan-opc they have St Nicholas for the month and year you want.

Thanks Hilary for the heads up but there is no further information than I already have On the BT's for St Nicholas it doesn't give the marital status of any of the grooms only their occupations.

James Owen and Rebecca Quick from Lan OPC:

Marriage: 21 Feb 1837 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Owen - Cordwainer, Liverpool
Rebecca Quick - (X), Spinister, Same Parish
Witness: Ann Wearing; Edward Lovatt
Married by Banns by: John Cheetham A. M. Offg. Minister
Register: Marriages 1835 - 1837, Page 262, Entry 1828
Source: LDS Film 93843

There are 2 other marriage entries for them in St Mary's RC, on 12 Jan 1837 one with English names, one with Latin names. On Genuki it says St Mary's Woolton was opened in 1860 and talks about a former priory being there called St Bennet's, so I'm unsure of which St Mary's this is in 1837?

In 1841 Rebecca Owen is shown as living in the household of her mother and father Mary and John Quick in Ashton's Square, Much Woolton (see what I did there!!) her name is now Rebecca Filkin (she married in 1839 to Samuel Filkin), in this census she has with her William Owen aged 8 so I assumed this was a son she had with James Owen, I have found a baptism for William Owen son of James and Rebecca Owen of Halewood, shoemaker on 24 Feb 1833 four years before they were married. I was hoping to find a record saying James was a widower when he married Rebecca Quick and his previous wife was also called Rebecca but I can't find anything online.

I've not seen a baptism before where the child was baptised and the parents look like they are a married couple but they aren't. Any thoughts from the crew please?

The year 1837 was the change-over year so at the beginning of that year (from January to June) you don't get full marriage details but from July onwards you should see the full marriage details that appear on marriage certificates. Back in the 1830s Much Woolton's or Woolton's RC church was called St Benet's or St Bennet's and was in Watergate Lane. The records for St Benet's appear under the later name St Mary. St Mary was built on a different site c1859/60. The baptism parents appear to be the same couple who later married they may have pretended to be married initially and would have been able to do this without scandal if they moved about.


Blue

Barbara,

Come across many baptisms of children born out of wedlock. It was important to parents to have their children baptised, equally important was not to have those children recorded as illegitimate. If the question wasn't asked "Are you married" and no different was known, the baptism was recorded the same as a married couple with child.

I remembered seeing this a while ago, I thought it might come in handy, see grave number 13 in the list on this link:-

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0999463303


Blue

Name: James Owen
Residence: Halewood
Age: 35
Birth Date: 1802
Death Date: 22 Apr 1837
Burial Place: St. Mary Woolton, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JZSF-YJ9


Blue

Blue70 wrote:I remembered seeing this a while ago, I thought it might come in handy, see grave number 13 in the list on this link:-

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0999463303


Blue

OMG that's James Owen who was buried 3 months after his marriage to Rebecca Quick, with his wife's mother Mary Quick (nee Molyneux) my 4 x great. grandmother. I need a lie down!! Thank you so much Blue

Bertieone wrote:Barbara,

Come across many baptisms of children born out of wedlock. It was important to parents to have their children baptised, equally important was not to have those children recorded as illegitimate. If the question wasn't asked "Are you married" and no different was known, the baptism was recorded the same as a married couple with child.

Good point Bertie, ask no questions, tell no lies.

BarbaraW wrote:does this mean the actual records are missing or have Liverpool RO just not supplied them to Anc?

Instead of trusting Ancestry in any way at all, I would prefer to check the Liverpool RO Catalogue
https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/arch ... catalogue/

and drilling down to the marriages for St Nicholas, reference is 283 NIC and then the list of Marriage Registers are here
https://liverpool.gov.uk/libraries/arch ... catalogue/
although you would need to click on each entry to check the dates. Check out 283 NIC/3/16-18

If the years you are looking for are held at the RO and not on Ancestry, then my belief is that your comment is erroneous in that it would be Ancestry's fault at not having copied them, not the RO for not having given them.

The person who provided the St Benet's gravestone information also provided the lists below that includes one of my ancestors. I tried e-mailing him but got no reply but that's no surprise considering how many years ago the information was posted:-

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/t ... 0999625074


Blue

“The founding of St Bennet’s Priory

Lady Molyneux continued to reside at Woolton Hall until her decease, and she was buried at Sefton, March 20, 1766. During the year before her death, in order to provide for the continuance of the Mission at Woolton, she gave twelve acres of land to the Order of St Benedict, and a chapel and presbytery, to which the name of St Bennet’s Priory was given, were erected, under the direction of Father Catterall, in Watergate Lane. On its completion Father Catterall took up his abode there permanently. This was probably occasioned by the proposed sale of the Hall to Nicholas Ashton. Father Catterall died at the Priory on September 9, 1781.”

https://prayers4reparation.wordpress.co ... or-christ/


Blue

This map shows the location of Woolton Hall where the RC mission was originally based. It also shows the location of St Benet's built in Watergate Lane c1766:-

http://maps.nls.uk/view/102344126#zoom= ... &layers=BT

"The Returns of Papists" 1767 has an Edward Catterall, aged 62 years, Priest, living in Much Woolton, he had been there for 11 years.


Blue

Wow what an amazing amount of information you have all given me from one quite simple question. It's amazing how something that doesn't seem like much can suddenly turn into a treasure trove!! I hadn't really paid that much attention to the old Rootsweb mailing lists but I will rectify this for sure!!

I can see familiar surnames on that Communicants list. I wonder where the OP got the original information from? I can also see Brian and a Sue talking about old local books about Woolton so I will follow that up too and of course a visit to Liverpool RO is needed, I'm so happy to see the records aren't missing at all, though I don't understand the big gaps on Anc on so many Liverpool church records?

I am a lot more Catholic than I ever thought which has really come as quite the surprise to me this past few months, also with a Methodist minister in the family and a supposed Irish Clergyman all I need now is a Jewish Rabbi!!

What a great genealogy night/day it's been and thank you once again all for taking me on yet another journey. I don't think I've ever been to Woolton that I can recall, so a visit there would be good too, even if it's just to walk around the graveyard.

The Owen/Quick gravestone may be in St Mary's graveyard. It's a nice little cemetery not to be confused with the Beatles related St Peter's which is more or less next door. There's an entrance in St Mary's Street off Allerton Road and another in Church Road. Cilla Black's funeral was at St Mary's.


Blue

Thanks for that tip Blue, it's on my bucket list for hopefully this year.

I've had a good look through those RootsWeb pages on Woolton and the person who posted the St Benet's gravestone inscriptions and the 1759 Woolton Hall Mission communicants list was at that time organist at St Mary's! He said he had access to information and was willing to share it. Whether he had feedback via e-mail I don't know but it seems a pity that there doesn't appear to have been people interacting with him in postings about the history of the Woolton Hall Mission, St Benet's and St Mary's.


Blue

Yes agreed such a shame he didn't get more feedback, I bet if he was to come onto forums like we have nowadays it would be a different story but in the old days it was all mailing lists and emails.

Going back a few posts. Perhaps they got married after living together and having children for a long time. This might be because they knew he wasn't going to live

Could be Lynne some things we'll never know I suppose. I could buy the death certificate but he was just somebody married to one of mine for a few months.......

On another note somebody off this very forum who might not wish me to give his name out in case he is inundated with people wanting him running around taking photographs, well he so very kindly went to the graveyard and took photo's of the grave for me of James Owen and Mary Molyneux!!! How amazingly kind and generous is that?

I've had such a great genealogy week.