Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi all, my first post on this forum.

For some years I have been doing the family trees for the Martindales of the north of England. I need a bit of help with two Liverpool families.

James +Janet Martindale, children Margaret (b.1842), James(b.1846), Eliz(b.1850), Charles A (b.1859). They appear in 1851 Census.

James + Jane Martindale, children James (b.about1846), Margreat(B. about 1843, married now surname Morgan), Eliz (b. about 1852), Charlotte (b. about 1855), Charles (b. about 1859). They appear in 1871 census with the three youngest children living with their married sister and linked to parents by IGI birth record.

My questions are, has anybody else come across these families and are they actually the same family? Are Jane and Janet the same person or two individuals? Is one (or both) of the father James the same guy who died in the Liverpool Lifeboat disaster in 1865 when the Liverpool No 1 lifeboat capsized whilst attempting to rescue passengers & crew of the Confederate American vessel LELIA which had sunk in a storm in Liverpool Bay on her maiden voyage. This has been mentioned in another earlier posting.
https://www.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk/ ... martindale

I would usually have put them down as the same family but have not seen the translation of Janet to Jane before.

Bill Martindale.

Hi Bill and welcome,

The 1861 family,

Pownall Square,
RG9 P2669 F120 Page45,
James Martindale 42 Liverpool, Licenced Victualler.
Jane Martindale 42 Scotland
James Martindale 15
Elizabeth Martindel 9
Charlotte Martindel 5
Charles Martindel 2
Rachel Jeffreys 36
Catherine Ferguson 14

Probate for James and Jane Martindale, Pownall Square,
DOD, James, 10 May, 1867
DOD, Jane, 2 Oct, 1866

Rules out being involved with the lifeboat incident,

1851,
HO107 P2179 F521 Page13

Pownall Square,

James Martindale 34 Boatman, Liverpool
Janet Martindale 32 Scotland
Margaret Martindale 9
James Martindale 5
Margaret Duggin 22 Server of Ale
Hannah Corrish 16 Server of Ale

You beat me to it I was just going to post the info!

Education Officer wrote:You beat me to it I was just going to post the info!

Shame on you Hilary, I'm the slowest typist in the world, or am I


James the son, Liverpool Mercury, Aug 30, 1867

It appears that Jane is only recorded as Janet on the 1851 census, Enumerators error perhaps, her children's baptisms, 61 census and death she is recorded as Jane. Same person.

Hi All, Many thanks for replies.

I agree most of the references are to jane but the name Janet is used on three of the births in the IGI.

Elizabeth Martindale
Gender Female
Christening Date 24 Oct 1850
Christening Place St. Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father's Name James Martindale
Mother's Name Janet


Janet Christina Martindale
England Births and Christenings
Name Janet Christina Martindale
Gender Female
Christening Date 25 Dec 1854
Christening Place St Peter's C of E, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father's Name James Martindale
Mother's Name Janet Martindale


Name Charles Alexander Martindale
Gender Male
Christening Date 18 Feb 1859
Christening Place SAINT PETER,LIVERPOOL,LANCASHIRE,ENGLAND
Birth Date 28 Jan 1859

Also I could not find a marrage for Janet but there was a possible James + Jane Walker 1838 marriage

Regards Bill Martindale

1855,

1854,


1859

deleted

1841,
HO107 P556 Book18,
Browns Court, Georges St.

James Martindale 20 Mariner
Sam Martindale 20, (Transcription Error) Jane
Henry Martindale 2



Henry Martindale
Male
Baptism
25 Aug 1839
St. Peter's, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father
James Martindale, Boatman
Mother
Jane
Georges Street

1850 & 1853
Jane and Janet used, same address.
There's a death registration for a Janet Martindale, 1853.


Deaths Dec 1853

Martindale Janet Liverpool 8b 81

Henry, 1838, George St, mother, Jane

Margaret, 1841, George St, mother, Jane

Mary, 1843, George St, mother, Jane

James, 1846, Bisteth St???, mother, Jane

Elizabeth, 1851, Highfield St, mother, Janet

Janet, 1853, Highfield St, mother, Jane, died 1853?

Janet Christina,1854, Pownall Sq, mother, Janet, died 1855?

Charlotte L, 1855, Pownall Sq, mother, Jane

Charles A, 1859, Pownall Sq, mother, Janet

Father James Martindale is described, Fisherman or Boatman.

Hi All.
Many thanks for all that Bert, you have been busy.

There is a death for Janet in 1853, followed by a child of Janet (Janet Christina) in 1854. You cannot have children if you are dead so it was not our Janet. The Janet dying in 1855 is the child Janet Christina.
Charlotte Leando (when she was Xtened) , child of Jane seens to be a mistranscription/quotation of Charlotte Amanda (when she got married).
I assume James the father was a boatman who became a Licensed Victualler some time after 1851. It might be possible to be both simultaneously. His son seems to have done the same. A boatman when parents died but a Victualler when he got married.

I am pretty certain its all one family and maybe Janet (who was scottish) used jane as her name when she came to England. Clearly somebody had a strong accent Leando=Amanda.

regards Bill Martindale

Both Janet's who died were the children, I wouldn't have posted the remaining children had I thought it was Jane/t the mother who had died.

Transfer of License

Liverpool Mercury, Oct 17, 1856.

Hi.
Yes Bert, just re-read the post on the two deaths and realised I had interpreted it incorrectly. Puzzled now, are we saying that the couple had two attempts to have a child called Janet (must have had a good reason, like it was the mothers natural name ) and the mother was Janet/Jane one and the same.

Regards Bill Martindale

Hi Bill,
It was quite common for a child to be named after a deceased sibling. Perhaps in some ways keeping the child's memory alive or following a family tradition of keeping the name going.


If I were to look for a birth certificate I would favour Jane as being her birth name, I tend to favour what a lady declares on her marriage certificate.

http://www.whatsinaname.net/female-names/Janet.html

Morning Bert, I see the early shift is up and about

BarbaraW wrote:Morning Bert, I see the early shift is up and about

Morning Barbara,

Morning everyone, welcome to the forum captainslog, I see you have been very well looked after by our Bert.

Reading through I would offer no other opinion than that I have often come across the intermingling of Jane and Janet, particularly with those of Scottish roots. Also if a child dies the name is often given to a subsequent baby, we wouldn't find that unusual.

As for Charlotte's middle name, if you have reason to believe she was given Leando as a family name then "Amanda" inserted at her wedding was not written by the lady herself and so can't be held as 100% certain as she could neither write it herself, nor probably read it to confirm what had been put.