Henry Jones and Mary Phillips

[Robbo101]

My father's maternal grandparents were Henry Jones and Mary Phillips, who married at 'the Church of St Clement, Beaumont St, Toxteth on 15th July 1862.
Henry was described as a "Tailor", son of Griffith Jones, also a tailor. On the marriage certificate he is recorded as living at Chatham St, Eye Hill. Mary had no occupation shown and was living at Upper Parliament St - her father was Richard Phillips, "Overseer in farm". Samuel and Margaret Breeze were the witnesses to the marriage.
The 1871 census shows Henry, Mary, and children, Margaret, John, William, Isabella (my father's mother) and Mary J(ane) living at No. 38 of what appears to be either Denise(?) or Devise(?) St. That census shows Henry as a "Sailor" and having been born in Wales and Mary in Ireland. The 1881 census shows Mary, widowed, living with Griffith (Head), 26, William, Isabella and Mary Jane at 12 Ruthin St, West Derby.
I have traced Mary, Isabella and Griffith to Melbourne, Victoria, Australia, but have not found any trace of Margaret, John or William in this country.
I have also failed, miserably, to find birth records for any of the children or the death record for Henry. If the age for Griffith in the 1881 census is correct then he was born well out of wedlock or, perhaps, is not one of Mary's children. A Griffith Jones died in the Alfred Hospital, Prahran, Melbourne on the 9th November 1918 and the death certificate noted his parents as "Henry Jones, Tailor" and "Mary Jones, formerly (maiden name) Unknown" and his age as 65, roughly consistent with the 1881 census age.
I am hoping for some guidance in locating death record for Henry and birth records for the children and some assistance in what sort of lifestyle there would have been for a tailor in the middle of the 19th century.
Mary died at Brunswick, Victoria, on October 30th, 1897. The death certificate noted her age as 60 and her parents as "Henry Phillips, Farmer" and her mother's maiden name as Crundle. The informant was "Griffith Jones, son". Note the change of her father's name from Richard on the marriage certificate to Henry at her death. It is possible that Griffith confused his father's name with that of Mary's father.
Any help would be appreciated.

[Bertieone]

Hi and welcome,

The address is Edge Hill (Eye Hill) marriage cert.

Catholic baptism, names Latinised.

Name:
Isabella Jones
Birth Date:
5 Sep 1863
Baptism Date:
26 Oct 1863
Parish:
St Anne, Lancashire, England
Father's name:
Henry Jones
Mother's name:
Mary Jones

[Bertieone]

Margaret Ann Jones

Birth
13 Dec 1851
Baptism
17 Jul 1853
Parish:
St Nicholas, Copperas Hill, Liverpool Lancashire, England
Father's name:
Henry Jones
Mother's name:
Mary Phillips

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... sePUB=true

[Bertieone]

John



Joannes Jones
Birth
5 Oct 1858
Baptism
3 Dec 1858
Parish:
St Francis Xavier's (Francisci Xavarii), Lancashire, England
Father's name:
Henrici Jones
Mother's name:
Maria Phillips

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... sePUB=true

[Bertieone]

Mary Jane

Maria Joanna Jones
Birth
18 Oct 1867
Baptism
24 Nov 1867
Parish:
St Anne, Lancashire, England
Father's name:
Henriii Jones
Mother's name:
Maria Philips


http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... sePUB=true

[Bertieone]

???



Henricus Jones
Birth
4 Jul 1856
Baptism
11 Aug 1856
Parish:
St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
Father's name:
Henrici Jones
Mother's name:
Maria Philips

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2180/ ... sePUB=true

[Robbo101]

Bertieone, I was a bit hasty with my previous reply and had not stopped to fully consider the date implications of your information. (Dinner was on the table and I was being called!)
I find myself quite confused. From the birth and baptism information of the children it would seem that Mary Phillips and Henry Jones may have been married in a Catholic ceremony in the early 1850s. The 1862 marriage at the Church of St Clement is strange - unless, of course, it may have been an entirely different couple. It also *may* have been due to a conversion to Protestantism - for whatever reason - but does not explain the baptisms of Isabella, in 1863 and her sister, Mary Jane in 1867.

[Bertieone]

Robbo,

My thoughts are no previous marriage took place prior to 1862, the children born before that date were born out of wedlock. The church would have marked the children as being illegitimate had they known the parents were not married.

It's likely that Mary was the Catholic and wanted the children Baptised in her faith, as for the marriage taking place in the Church of England, we can only guess as for the reason why.
Perhaps Mary went along with Henry's wishes or the couple thought it was best to marry away from the Catholic church in order to preserve their secret, we'll never know.

[Robbo101]

Hi Bert
Since my last post I have been thinking along the same lines. The information you have sent was so surprising that it threw me for a bit.
The family were all still together in the 1871 census but in 1881 the oldest child, Griffith, was the "Head", "Seaman" and Mary was shown as "Mother" and "Widow". So somewhere between those two events Henry may have died.
It's also interesting that, so far, the birth/baptism of Griffith has not shown up. According to the census he was 26 in 1871, giving a birth year around 1855. His death certificate in Melbourne gives his age in 1918 as 65 - thus born around 1853. Ages in these documents are always a bit suspect but at least these two are in rough agreement.
The death certificate describes him as a "Labourer" and as having been in Victoria for 50 years. This latter information was provided by a hospital employee and is patently wrong as he was in Liverpool in 1881. His sister, Isabella, had been widowed herself (1916) and living in difficult circumstances. I have no idea why she was not the informant on Griffiths' death certificate.
Thanks once again for your help.

[MaryA]

I wonder if the reason why they weren't married prior to the children being born was because he had a previous marriage? or maybe he was away and baby due and things progressed before they could reach the altar ?

If they were known at the RC church, and it would seem as though they might have been having had their children baptised there, could be the reason for going to a different church for their later marriage, where they were not known.

[Bertieone]

Deaths registered in Liverpool & West Derby between 1871/1881 with a birth year 1826 +/- 3 years.

Henry Jones,

1873, aged 45/1828, Lpool 8b 81
1878, aged 55/1823, Lpool 8b 156

1872, aged 49/1823, West Derby 8b 188
1878, aged 53/1825, West Derby 8b 293
1879, aged 54/1825, West Derby 8b 282

Assuming he died and was registered at one of the above and the informant knew his age, it may narrow it down a bit.

[Bertieone]

The above 1879 death, West Derby, was registered in the June Qtr.

Obit in the newspaper, Liverpool Mercury, 19 May 1879.

Henry Jones, May 15 at 4 Netley St, Walton Rd, aged 54, late of Tithebarn St, Liverpool.

[Bertieone]

The 1878 Liverpool registered death, March Qtr,


Name:
Henry Jones, Workhouse.
Birth
abt 1823
Age:
55
Burial
15 Mar 1878
Parish
Walton Park

[Robbo101]

Thank you Bert. There are a few to choose from there - but at this stage I haven't anything to go on with respect to age. So, will include all of these as possibilities.
You have been a great help to me and I do appreciate that very much.
Regards
Peter