Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello, I have 2 brick walls I've had for many years. I'll do 2 separate posts for them, both my great grandfathers one on each side.

Thomas Henry BANKS on marrying his wife Elizabeth BROWN at St Catherine's church, Edge Hill in 1897 says his father is Isaac BANKS, carter, deceased.

I've searched but I just can't pin my Thomas down, maybe his middle name of Henry was something he adopted later in life but it's always there on whatever I've found on him.

Many years ago I sent for the only birth certificate that looked likely, this was in the days when we only had the 1881 census on CD's, the only Thomas Henry BANKS with a father Isaac and being the right age was on a farm in Egremont, Cumberland which turned out to be completely wrong as I later found out from researchers of this farming family.

He seems to always have lived around the Edge Hill area and be a carter, it says on a few censuses I've found he was born in Liverpool, he's buried with his wife and her parents in Toxteth Park Cemetery.

I've seen some family trees on Ancestry with Isaac Banks being linked to Thomas, this Isaac is a watchmaker, widower and lodging in Mulberry Street with 2 children (but not Thomas) but none of these trees have cited any certificates just online census information and I don't feel it fits the known facts, which TBH aren't that many.

A few weeks ago I sent for the BC to the GRO asking for a search for Thomas Henry Banks, born circa 1873 in Liverpool, with a father Isaac Banks but they've refunded my money.

I can see a Thomas Henry Banks born Manchester on the BMD index but why would he say he was born in Liverpool if he was a Mancunian? I've searched all the usual places and today I even found a BANKS one name study group where the owner doesn't look like he can place Thomas's father either.

http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin ... &id=I39527


Also a group that specialised in Jewish genealogy threw the name up in a Google search, is it possible that Isaac Banks is Jewish? Though that shouldn't make any difference to civil registration should it?

I do have some notes (somewhere) of where I was looking at Woolton where there was a Thomas Banks the right age living with grandparents on the 1881 census but I can't remember the outcome, I don't think I was able to take it any further. If you google the name you will see it's been quite some years I've been looking, right back to the old rootsweb mailing lists.......

Image Reference RG11/3721/F?

Another possible is Alice Banks, married, says husband is at sea she's at Wilfer Street (right area) on the 1881 census with sons Thomas 9 and George 1 month.

Image Reference RG11/3708/F?

I'd appreciate somebody looking at this with fresh eyes please.

I can see the 1901 and 1911 census records and the marriage at St Catherine's Edgehill (I've played 5 a side football in there) have you found him on the 1891 census?


Blue

No Blue, but I've just come across the Woolton family living in Vauxhall Road in the 1871 census which discounts this being my Thomas Banks (1881 grandson of Thomas and Betsy Harrison) as the father is named as John Banks.

Image Reference RG10/3761/~F128

Have you checked out the Thomas Banks, aged 18, soldier at Orford Barracks in 1891?

Blue

Blue70 wrote:Have you checked out the Thomas Banks, aged 18, soldier at Orford Barracks in 1891?

Blue

I saw that one earlier today and also have it in my saved old printed out files when I went for a shuftie to check it out this afternoon, I think I may need to check this one out thoroughly, I believe it's Warrington right?

Who were the witnesses at the marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth? Wondering if they might be give any clues.

Alison

Alison C wrote:Who were the witnesses at the marriage of Thomas and Elizabeth? Wondering if they might be give any clues.

Alison

John Brown and Henrietta Brown, presumably siblings of the bride, at least I know Henrietta was as I knew her as Great Auntie Hettie.

BarbaraW wrote:

Blue70 wrote:Have you checked out the Thomas Banks, aged 18, soldier at Orford Barracks in 1891?

Blue

I saw that one earlier today and also have it in my saved old printed out files when I went for a shuftie to check it out this afternoon, I think I may need to check this one out thoroughly, I believe it's Warrington right?

Yes this is it:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peninsula ... Warrington


Blue

No luck pursuing the watch case maker and Olivia James. The 1883 death of Isaac Banks is probably the watch case maker. There was an Isaac Banks, carter, who married Sarah Alice Miller at St Nicholas CE Liverpool on 15 Feb 1874. Thomas' birth might have been registered under a different surname. He could have been illegitimate, informally adopted or his mother could have been widowed and there was a surname change.


Blue

That Isaac sounds promising.

Do we know Sarah Alice's father's name? Could this be her 1871 living with Eliza Bradshaw?:

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KZGT-6WZ

Ignore my last question. I can see now Sarah's father was Henry Miller - so I guess she probably wasn't married when Thomas was born. This ties in with Thomas's middle name being Henry.

Alison

I have this in my notes.

Isaac Banks married Sarah Alice Miller 15 Feb 1874 Saint Nicholas Liverpool M005995 Source 0093857

After such exhaustive searches of the birth indexes I would also think that perhaps he was illegitimate and registered under his mother's name.

In case it is worth searching along the line of the Isaac mentioned above, I thought I'd post the marriage as one of the witnesses may be a clue to Isaac previously.

Thank you everyone for looking at this and for your thoughts. I now think he was probably illegitimate too.

It's good to get viewpoints looked at with fresh eyes.

I will pursue the Orford Barracks link and see if I can move the above marriage through later censuses.

Just to update, sorry it was Liverpool Register Office I tried to get this BC through not the GRO (I was trialling both at the same time). I checked with them today to make doubly sure I'd put the right year down to check and had assumed they check one year either side like the GRO do but no they do even better than that. However it's not good news for my search.


Sorry,

We checked 1870 – 1876 and there is no record of a Thomas Henry BANKS

Regards

Ronnie Horton
Registration Officer
Liverpool Registration Service

That's a good band for them to search, however, it is then limited to Liverpool.

MaryA wrote:That's a good band for them to search, however, it is then limited to Liverpool.

Yes that's true but that's where Thomas has for his birthplace in the censuses I can find him on, mind you he wasn't very accurate with his own name was he?

I've been trying to find the couple in the censuses you found the marriage for Mary and I just can't find them!! I can find Sarah Alice on the 1861 census with father Henry and that's about it. I thought the couple would be easy to find in 1881 but I'm now wondering if they moved away but I've only been checking Lancashire TBH. I can see now why those trees have Isaac Banks, watch case maker as the father as it looks the most likely out of very few but it doesn't sit right with me for some reason. This Isaac has 2 young children with him as a widower so why is my Thomas not with him as he was very young at that time too? Of course he could have been elsewhere..........

Any ideas or thinking outside the box will be very welcome. I'd appreciate it if somebody else could find them on the 1881 census, fingers crossed.

If Thomas Henry was born before his parents' marriage then he may have been registered under his mother's surname.
There are a couple of potential birth registrations:
Births Dec 1871
MILLER Thomas Henry
District: Liverpool
Vol: 8b
Page: 51

Births Dec 1872
District: West Derby
Vol: 8b
Page: 456

Alison

Thank you Alison, that's the way I am now thinking thanks to this group.

I suppose I could order both and specify only if the mother is Sarah Miller? I always worry about getting the wrong certificate, not only because of the cost but I don't want to spend precious time chasing the wrong family........