Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I can't find a birth cert for my grandfather David Rees Jones despite knowing quite a lot about him. I have marriage and death certs. Earliest record is employment file from Liverpool Collegiate school where he started teaching in 1916 and remained for rest of career . Gives DOB as 30/6/1875 but this doesn't tally with age on death cert in 1951. Attended Newmarket (Flint) Grammar School 1883-1886 and Bangor Uni 1901-1905. His father was Robert Jones Mining Engineer. He married Ena Charles in Wrexham Parish Church in 1916. Attended Welsh Calvinistic Methodist Chapel in Princes Road. Won 2nd prize for drama National Eisteddfod 1927. Published short plays in Welsh with Brythion Press. Moved to London area 1950, died in 1951.
Have searched all appropriate Census returns without success. Don't know where he was between 1886 - 1901 and 1905-1913. Addresses for him in Liverpool: Templemore Avenue and Glenmore Avenue Mossley Hill. I have tried Bangor Uni archive but they sent me details of someone from another family - not surprising with so many Jones's! I am quite new to family history. Any advice would be welcome.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I would just comment that the deceased person didn't themselves give the date of birth for the death certificate, it would have been provided by whoever registered the death, and they may not have known exactly the correct information themselves.

Have you tried requesting the birth certificate from the GRO - http://www.gro.gov.uk and answering "No" to the question "Is the GRO Reference known", this enables you to enter your own criteria for the request, so you could enter the date of birth given on his employment record and also if you wish, the name of his father from the marriage certificate.

I myself have telephoned and requested a certificate on a similar basis and been successful.

Hi. As MaryA pointed out it was not unusual for an informant of a death to get the date of birth of the deceased wrong. Can you tell what was given as the DoB on the death cert?

The GRO Birth Index has 11 registrations of a David Rees Jones birth between 1874 and 1876, all in Wales with the one exception of Stepney in London in 1876. A GRO search as suggested by MaryA based on the year 1875 might bear fruit as the GRO will search one year either side of that year. You should also consider David's birth may not have registered as David Rees. The Rees may have been added later.

You say you have David's marriage cert. Can you post the names of the witnesses and what age David gave.

As his father is said to be a mining engineer it is quite possible the family moved around the country a lot, so could be difficult to pin down in a census without having a few more 'scraps' of information such as siblings.

Quite used to 'clutching at straws' in this intriguing pastime of ours I found this in 1881. It is the only instance I could find of a father Robert who is a miner with a son David and the family home is very close to where David first attended school....

1881: RG11 Piece 3564 Folio 45 Page 18
Address: Quay Road, Hawarden (Flint)
Robert Jones Head 31 1850 Coal Miner - Caernarvonshire, Wales
Mary Jones Wife 31 1850 - Llanasa, Flintshire, Wales
Moses Jones Son 9 1872 Scholar - Flintshire, Wales
David Jones Son 7 1874 Scholar - Flintshire, Wales
John Jones Son 5 1876 Scholar - Flintshire, Wales
Catherine A Jones Dtr 3 1878 - Flintshire, Wales
Robert H Jones Son 0 1881 - Hawarden, Flintshire, Wales

Find My Past has the Teachers Registration Council Registers on it which details the career of a teacher. I found this very useful in determining where one of my family was - she ended up teaching in Europe!

Credits can be purchased.

Teachers Registration Council records available

1894-1898 Junior Master Newmarket Grammar School
1912 Form Master Milton Abbas School Blandford Dorset
1912-1914 Manor House School Clapham Common London
1915 Senior English Master Harrow County School
1916 English Master Collegiate School Liverpool

Thanks to everyone for replies. I have tried GRO as suggested but they couldn't help. He died on 12/01/51. Marriage cert details: Wrexham Parish Church 26/02/16 to Ena Charles. Age given as "Full Age". Address: 9 Templemore Ave Mossley Hill. Witnesses Edward Rees Jones (his brother I believe) & Mary Evleen Charles (I know she was the bride's sister). Minister R. Eustace Jones. I would be grateful for more advice. Sorry if my responses are slow, my husband is disabled so I haven't got as much time as I would like to devote to this. Diana

What was his age at death?

Is this the death index?

Name: David R Jones
Birth Date: abt 1873
Date of Registration: Jan Feb Mar 1951
Age at Death: 78
Registration district: Middlesex South
Inferred County: Middlesex
Volume: 5f
Page: 80


Blue

Hello. Yes that is the right death index. It says he was 78. I have sent for 2 birth certs from the GRO which were not the right ones, and asked them to search, but they said they could not find one which corresponded with his details, father's name and occupation etc. Thank you for your interest. Diana

alex69 wrote:Teachers Registration Council records available

1894-1898 Junior Master Newmarket Grammar School
1912 Form Master Milton Abbas School Blandford Dorset
1912-1914 Manor House School Clapham Common London
1915 Senior English Master Harrow County School
1916 English Master Collegiate School Liverpool

Thank you for this info. I did know some of it, but not all. It is interesting that he was a junior master at Newmarket, that was also where he was a pupil himself until 1886. There is an 8 year gap between leaving school and becoming a junior master, then a 3 year gap between leaving that post and going to University in Bangor. After that there was a 7 year gap between leaving Uni and starting work in Dorset. He was always a rather delicate man (heart condition) so I wonder if he might have been in hospital at these times? Of course he could have been abroad or in gaol! I have done a search of military records and the census returns without any luck, so I don't know where to go next. I might try looking up the schools to see if they have any records. Liverpool Collegiate School have sent me what they have, Bangor University sent me something, but it was the wrong person. I will keep trying. Thanks for your help. Diana

dilusearch15 wrote:Witnesses Edward Rees Jones (his brother I believe)

You sound as if you know of this man, was he living in Liverpool or Wales? has anybody any memories of him? Might he have married and have children?

Hi

If he attended Grammar School at Newmarket, Flintshire from 1883, wouldn't he be born about 1872?

What about this family at Newmarket in 1881?

all born Newmarket living at Hen Dy, Newmarket
Class: RG11; Piece: 5500; Folio: 43; Page: 6;
Robert Jones 53 lead Miner
Ann Jones 51
Sarah Jones 19
Richard Jones 17
Reuben Jones 15
Edward Jones 13
Jane Jones 11
David Jones 9


what do you know of Ena Charles? Who was her father and was her name actually Ena or something else...

Simone

hmm could this be what is left of that family some 20 years later at Newmarket in 1901?

young David Jones is now David R Jones and he is a Ministry Minster/Master? ( can't make out second word)

all born Newmarket
RG13; Piece: 5207; Folio: 35; Page: 8
Anne Jones 70 widow
Jane Jones 29 daughter -draper
David R Jones 27 b Newmarket

Simone

curiouser and curiouser

back to 1891
91 Jacob Street, Toxteth Park
Class: RG12; Piece: 2930; Folio: 15; Page: 24
David R Jones, b Newmarket Flinstshire, boarder, clerk

MaryA wrote:

dilusearch15 wrote:Witnesses Edward Rees Jones (his brother I believe)

You sound as if you know of this man, was he living in Liverpool or Wales? has anybody any memories of him? Might he have married and have children?

Yes he was my grandfather and I remember him. I know all about him from 1916 when he started teaching in Liverpool, but not before. By the way I get lost quite a lot on this site, can't find a way of replying to a specific answer to my post without using the "quote" button. Sorry I'm not very internet savvy! Diana

I meant do you know of Edward Rees Jones, not David. Sometimes it helps to look at other members of the family too.

And what do you think of Simone's findings, they seem to tie in very well to my mind.

Just look at the bottom of these messages and you will see a button that says "Post Reply"

I have just come across the notes on this chap on the forum whilst searching for any tit bit of info about my own Rees & Jones and williams family connections.
Have read through all the posts,I feel that all efforts have been futile to find his birth owing to misinformation given. I did some searching of my own on David Rees Jones and could not connect the dots. There are about 15 separate births registered with this name, between 1872 and 1882, mostly in Wales, mothers maiden name for the majority of these is Rees, Jones or Williams. So I checked out Edward Rees Jones, and found the same thing.

Here is the marriage Registry details that were referred to by Diana. The marriage of David Rees Jones and Eva Charles, details are as follows:-
Married on 26th February 1916 Reg. Wrexham, Denbigh. David Rees Jones, Bachelor, of Full Age, occupation Assistant Master, Mossley Hill, Liverpool. Bride is Eva Charles, aged 31 years, Spinster of Wrexham, married in the Established church following Banns. Witnesses were Edward Rees Jones and Mary Eveleen Charles.
Query ?
David Rees Jones' age was not given, for one reason or another; ie, he was under age or did not wish to be identified.

Now after searching indexes and other records, drawing a nil conclusion. I turned to the Newspapers. Surprise, surprise here is what I found.

Graduates, Cambrian News, 10 August 1900 p2.

David Jones, BANGOR, University College
David Rees Jones, CARDIFF, University college.

Hence Diana received the information for a different person from BANGOR.

Now this was more interesting,......
Illustrated Police News, 3rd June 1911, page 7 (Also appeared in the Dundee Courier on 29/05/1911, p5)
Article reads as follows:-
"Marian Myfanwy Pritchard, 25, daughter of Denbighsire Magistrate and Deacon of the Calvinistic Methodist Chapel........."
"The defendant Reverand David Rees Jones, a minister of the same denomination, formerly of Plas Madoc, Reubon, and now of Mossley Hill, Liverpool....."
"A child was born in April........."
On hearing of the charges David Rees Jones, resigned, and stated he would defend the allegations to the end.
The plaintiff, Pritchard, stated in the case, that they had met in Rhyl in 1907, and later in 1909 had been intimate. Jones denied all of the accusations made by her, The magistrate found in favour of the Plaintiff, and awarded her maintenance of 3d 6s per week for the lifetime of the child. David Rees Jones, supported by his brother Edward Jones, broke down and cried.

I don't think there is any point debating whether this is the same David Rees Jones, referred to by the marriage certificate. But is this the correct David Rees Jones that was the subject of the teachers registration 1920, and is this Dianas grandfather ?

Appointments in st Asaph Diocese, Western Mail, 6 August 1925 p.11, reads as follows:-
The St. Asaph Diocesan Patronage Board of the Church in Wales has made the following appointments:- The Rev. Robert Hugh Pritchard, BA (lam) curate......
The Rev. David Rees Jones, BA (oxon) Assistant Master at Ruthin School, Denbighshire, to be Vicar of Pool Quay, Montgomeryshire, in the place of the Venerable D. Grimaldi Davis who has resigned.

As there are so many David Rees Jones', it appears that he was hopping all over the place. Often Family Stories, and what we think we know, can lead us very much astray at times, so I believe that you just need to start at the beginning with with Diana's father and the info from his birth certificate.

Well done Sharene, you seem to have taken this story a step further. Unfortunately Diana didn't remain a member of the forum and may not pick up that there has been a response to this thread. I hope that she drops by now and again and picks it up and replies to your hard work.

Thanks Mary,
I was aware that Diana is no longer a member, however, I thought I would post this any way, In the event she does Pop back in.
Or perhaps this info might benefit someone else.