Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Ken Holden's recent post inspired me to ask -
I have been looking for years for my 2x GGrandmother. She was born Sarah Grimes in 1840 and married James Woodfine in 1859 (both born Liverpool). James died in 1868. Children -
Thomas 1860-1934
Mary Jane 1861-1933 m. John Belton 1888
Margaret 1863 m. Matthew Sims 1883
James 1866-1895?
Elizabeth 1868-1868

1861 - the only James and Sarah Woodfine are boarding with Jeremiah Nolan in Widnes, reported to be born in Neston. There are no other Woodfines of their names and ages, so I believe this may be them and the birthplace is a mistake. (Another question is why they would be in Widnes. I can't connect Nolan to the family. I read there was a large chemical industry, maybe there were jobs going, if anyone has ideas I'd love to hear them.)

I can't find any of the family in 1871.

1881- Lenord (sic) and Sarah Holden are living in Tenterden St with children Margaret Woodfine (right age) and Jane Woodfine and Sarah and Henry Holden, all born Liverpool. There's no Jane Woodfine born about that time. Is it possible the enumerator misheard and this could be son James and this is my GGgrandmother?

I can't find a Woodfine-Holden marriage. I can't find Sarah on any other census (there's a Sarah Woodfine death of the right age in 1914). Can you keen eyes and keen minds out there help? Thanks in advance.

Linwood247 wrote:1881- Lenord (sic) and Sarah Holden are living in Tenterden St with children Margaret Woodfine (right age) and Jane Woodfine and Sarah and Henry Holden, all born Liverpool. There's no Jane Woodfine born about that time. Is it possible the enumerator misheard and this could be son James and this is my GGgrandmother?

I can't find a Woodfine-Holden marriage. I can't find Sarah on any other census (there's a Sarah Woodfine death of the right age in 1914). Can you keen eyes and keen minds out there help? Thanks in advance.

couldn't Jane be Mary Jane, although age a little out

1861 - the only James and Sarah Woodfine are boarding with Jeremiah Nolan in Widnes, reported to be born in Neston.

I believe Neston [which is actually in Cheshire] is a transcription error for Nelson, Lancashire.

1861: RG9 Piece 2743 Folio 49 Page 8
Address: McKeugie[?] Terrace, Widnes, Lancashire
Jeremiah Nolan Head 28 1833 ?? Chem worker - Ireland
Mary Nolan Wife 23 1838 - Nelson, Lancashire
James Woodfine Boarder Md 24 1837 ??layer labourer - Nelson, Lancashire
Sarah L Woodfine Boarder Md 20 1841 - Nelson, Lancashire
Thomas Woodfine Boarder 1 1860 - Widnes, Lancashire

Good thinking Simone, but Mary Jane is ruled out as, even though she didn't marry until 1888, in 1881 she was living with her baby daughter in her future in -laws' home. She converted to Catholicism in order to marry him. Another question is why they waited so long. Surely it wouldn't take 7-8 years?

Ok dickiesam, I just looked on the map and Nelson is nowhere near Liverpool either! I don't know where she acquired the middle initial 'L'. Too many questions

Linwood247 wrote:Mary Jane is ruled out as, even though she didn't marry until 1888, in 1881 she was living with her baby daughter in her future in -laws' home. She converted to Catholicism in order to marry him. Another question is why they waited so long. Surely it wouldn't take 7-8 years?

I'm a very sceptical person, although she was living with her future in-laws it doesn't necessarily mean the baby belonged the son of that family.

Tut tut Mary, what are you suggesting. The baby was 2 months old on the census. I like to think the future husband was the father and there were reasons (religious?) they couldn't marry until 1888 but I'll never know. I have the baby on the tree as the child of 'unknown spouse'.

Re: Marriages Dec 1859: Grimes, Sarah and Woodfine, James - Liverpool 8b 65

I assume you have this marriage cert? What is Sarah's father's name and occupation? I ask because there are 4 birth registrations for a Sarah Grimes in Liverpool for 1841 +/- 2 years.

Here's the marriage DS

Marriage: 22 Nov 1859 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Woodfine - Full, Labourer, Bachelor, Hopwood St.
Sarah Grimes - (X), Minor, Spinster, Hopwood St.
Groom's Father: John Woodfine, Labourer
Bride's Father: Robert Grimes, Labourer
Witness: Ephraim Lockhart, (X); Eliza Lockhart, (X)
Married by banns by: A. J. Tomlin B. A. Curate
Register: Marriages 1859 - 1860, Page 156, Entry 311
Source: LDS Film 1656680

Been trying to track Leonard, but he's tricky.. no sign except for 1851 with parents Seth and Ann
Class: HO107; Piece: 2176; Folio: 661; Page: 4
Also wondering about this family.. could Lawrence be Leonard? and only other difference is Mary Ann should be Mary Jane, but seen that happen before...
All other kids fit

1871
all born Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3760; Folio: 48; Page: 89;
Raymond Street
Lawrence Holden 29 labourer
Sarah Holden 30
Thomas Holden 11
Mary Ann Holden 9
Margret Holden 7
James Holden 5
John Hones 42 boarder labourer
Sarah Hones 44 boarder

can't find this family later either and no sign of a marriage for them

marriage for young Sarah?

Liverpool All Saints
Sarah Ellen Holden
Birth Year:abt 1870
Age:23
Marriage Date:13 Sep 1893
Parish:Liverpool, All Saints
Spouse's Name:Joseph Tweedley
Father's name:Leonard Holden - labourer
Spouse Father's Name: Robert Tweedley

Linwood247 wrote:Tut tut Mary, what are you suggesting. The baby was 2 months old on the census. I like to think the future husband was the father and there were reasons (religious?) they couldn't marry until 1888 but I'll never know. I have the baby on the tree as the child of 'unknown spouse'.

My own grandmother married in an RC church at 20 years as was her husband who was baptised as an adult a few months before the wedding. I don't believe she had known him for as many as eight years for him to have needed that long to prepare for baptism

I am curious as to what reasons you would imagine would take so many years. It could be that the family took her in and then she got to know the father ......

There is also this conversion for a Henry Holden at St Mary's Liverpool.. no age given.. not sure if young Henry or not connected?

Henricus Holden
Conversus
Birth Date:7 Mar 1887 - this date crossed out on image...
Baptism Date:7 Mar 1887
Parish:
St Mary's, Lancashire, England

It could be that the family took her in and then she got to know the father

-- I haven't found how to incorporate a quote yet
Good point Mary. I thought maybe they waited until a parent passed, no approval? didn't want to offend? etc.
She converted the year before the marriage, as did her born out of wedlock daughter - hate that word illegitimate.

simone wrote:marriage for young Sarah?

Liverpool All Saints
Sarah Ellen Holden
Birth Year:abt 1870
Age:23
Marriage Date:13 Sep 1893
Parish:Liverpool, All Saints
Spouse's Name:Joseph Tweedley
Father's name:Leonard Holden - labourer
Spouse Father's Name: Robert Tweedley

I do think that's young Sarah E's marriage, Simone. They went on to have twins - Tweedleydum and Tweedleydee
(Nearly got the quote right)

do you have this marriage?

Marriage: 9 Jun 1903 St Matthew, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Joseph Owens - 21, Labourer, Bachelor, Latimer Street
Mary Holden - 20, Spinster, Tindall Street
Groom's Father: Edward Owens, Labourer
Bride's Father: Leonard Holden, Dock Labourer
Witness: James Sime; Sarah Ellen Tweedley
Married by Banns by: J. Douglas Lord
Register: Marriages 1891 - 1915, Page 168, Entry 336
Source: LDS Film 93803

Curiouser and curiouser, Simone. No, I hadn't seen that marriage, but the witness James Sime - Mary Jane's sister Margaret married Matthew Sims, but the only censuses and births I found were for Sime. Haven't figured out if there's a transcription error involved and they're really Sime, or just surprising coincidences.

1891 census

Class: RG12; Piece: 2944; Folio: 107; Page: 28
6 court 17 Prince Edwin st
John Sime 41 porter shop
Priscilla Sime 40
Isabella Sime 14
Elizabeth Sime 12
James Sime 9
David Sime 4
Mary Holden 49 lodger, widow
Sarah Holden 19 daughter
Mary Holden 9 daughter-----so is this Mary who states her father as Leonard on the above 1903 marriage

so is that young Sarah who is 10 in 1881.. and does that mean Sarah Snr is calling herself Mary in 1891, or just amistake on census?.. but where is Henry?
Leonard died 1889?

Leonard Holden
Estimated birth year:abt 1840
Registration Year:1889
Registration Quarter:Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death:49
Registration district:West Derby
Inferred County:Lancashire
Volume:8b
Page:342


1881
Class: RG11; Piece: 3597; Folio: 42; Page: 19

Lenord Holden 43
Sarah Holden 41
Margeret Woodfine 17
Jane Woodfine 15
Sarah Holden 10
Henry Holden 1

so Matthew is witness James' brother

Matthew Sime
Birth Date:14 May
Baptism Date:17 Aug 1884
Parish:Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:John Preston Sime
Mother's name:Priseilla Sime

James Sims
Birth Date:10 Sep
Baptism Date:2 Oct 1881
Parish:Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:John Sims
Mother's name:Priscilla Sims

Priscilla Sime
Birth Date:12 Jul
Baptism Date:6 Sep 1874
Parish:Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:John Sime
Mother's name:Priscilla Sime

Isabella Sims
Birth Date:29 Dec 1876
Baptism Date:28 Jan 1877
Parish:Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:John Sims
Mother's name:Priscilla Sims

Elizabeth Ann Sims
Birth Date:2 Feb
Baptism Date:17 Feb 1879
Parish:Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:John Sims
Mother's name:Priscilla Sims

Ann Sims
Birth Date:2 Nov 1872
Baptism Date:5 Jan 1873
Parish:Liverpool, St Peter
Father's name:John Sims
Mother's name:Perscilla Sims

so what do you reckon... Mary Holden age 49 in 1891 should be/is Sarah Holden?

did young Henry die

Henry Holden
Estimated birth year:
abt 1881
Registration Year:1881
Registration Quarter:Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death:0
Registration district:Liverpool

Volume:8b
Page:12

1901 census

Mary is now Sarah again
11 Lindall?
Class: RG13; Piece: 3408; Folio: 67; Page: 53
Joshua Tweedley 40 marine fireman
Sarah Tweedley 29
Sarah Holden 60 mother in law
Mary Holden 18 sister in law.. marries Joseph Owens in 1903
Frederick Conway 3 adopted