Where and when did they wed

[gf27]

Hi team.
Can any of the crew help me locate a wedding, I presume in Liverpool. It was between Robert Henry Fletcher and Elizabeth A ??????. Henry and Elizabeth are recorded on the 1911 census at 33 Abraham St, Everton, Liverpool.
Details. Reg district West Derby.
Reg district No 455.
Sub district South Everton.
EIV 15.
Piece 22528.
Robert and Elizabeth are listed with their children, Ellen Elsie Fletcher and Richard Jacob Fletcher. The document states they had been married 3 years.
but I cant find any record and I would like to know Elizabeth's maiden name and her parents names and her Fathers occupation, if recorded.
Robert Henry Fletchers Parents where Jacob and Ellen, nee Jones.
The Richard Jacob Fletcher record is especially important to me as it opens up a previously unknown male line.
As always, any help greatly appreciated.
Thank you. Gareth.

[Bertieone]

Hi Gareth,

Haven't found a marriage yet, you may have to get one of the children's birth certs to find the mothers maiden name.

There was a Elizabeth A Keefe, bn, 1874, India. Servant.
Toxteth Park.
1891,
RG12; Piece: 2937; Folio: 93; Page: 4;

Can't find her in 1911, might be worth looking in to.

[Bertieone]

Probably cocking my leg up the wrong tree,

Looking for possible Fletcher children, with a mother Keefe?? there was an Edna A Fletcher born, 1914, West Derby, 8b 991,
Mothers maiden name, Keepe.

Couldn't find a marriage between a Fletcher & Keepe

[dickiesam]

Here's another Elizabeth A ? born in India....

1881: RG11 Piece 3706 Folio 9 Page 11
Address: St Anns Industrial School, 60 Mason Street, West Derby,
Elizabeth Formbey - Scholar - Age 9 - Bn 1872 - Birth place: India

Birth: ELIZABETH FORMBY
Year: 1872
Place: KAMPTEE, INDIA
Regiment: 44th Foot [Note: 44th (East Essex) Regiment of Foot].
GRO Regimental Birth Indices (1761 to 1924) - Volume 1199 - Page 11

1891: RG12 Piece 2976 Folio 82 Page 3
Address: Wellfield Road, Walton on the Hill, West Derby.
Frances Morgan Head 26 1865 Paint And Colour Manufacturer - Liverpool
Rose Morgan Wife 23 1868 - Manchester
Elizabeth Formby Servant U/m 19 1872 Domestic Servant - Burmah [sic], India.

Note: Kamptee is a city in the Nagpur district Maharashtra State, India. Quite close to the border with Burma.

Haven't found this Elizabeth in 1901 or 1911, yet. So did she marry and was still married when she met Robert H [who was single in 1901]?

But he may have married?
Marriages Jun 1903: Fletcher, Robert - Liverpool 8b 236
Marriages Mar 1904: Fletcher, Robert - W. Derby 8b 656

[Hilary]

It would appear that Elizabeth filled in the census form so why didn't she know where her children were born? Anyone any ideas as to what OX as a place means?

I can't see a birth registration for either child in West Derby or Toxteth Park registration districts.


Edit

Seen a suggestion that OX may mean not given

[gf27]

Thanks for all your efforts. The Indian connection is interesting. I think the birth cert may be the sensible way forwards. I have never seen OX on a document before, I must confess I missed that.
Any thoughts on how to look further into my missing linage, Richard Jacob Fletcher, i.e. does he show up on latter records ?
I am pleased I did not miss anything obvious
Could they have wed some ware else ?
Will keep on looking armed with the clues you have provided.
Thank you for your support. Gareth

[Hilary]

The difficulty seems to me to be were was Richard Jacob's birth registered? You could try finding a baptism in a local church which might lead to a birth registration.

[dickiesam]

That 1911 census household form...
It appears that when Elizabeth completed it she omitted the two children for some reason. Perhaps she thought only adults were to be counted? The children were added to the form by the enumerator using his 'purple' ink pen, the same pen he used when completing his Verification section of the form. I reckon it was he who omitted where they were born, not Elizabeth.

The red 0X was written in much later by a census checker when the red Occupation Codes were added. The list of occupation codes used in the 1911 census which runs from 000 [for Schoolmasters, Teachers, Professors, Lecturers - In Schools and under Local Authorities] to 998 [Machinists, Machine Workers (undefined)] and then X at the end which means 'Others'. I assume it was prefixed with 0 so it would not be confused with an X for error or 'his/her signature'.

There are indications that Elizabeth may have been only partially literate in that she has entered the children's ages on the form where she should have written the ages of the adults. Perhaps her reading skills were not good?
Ellen Elsie = 18 months and Richard Jacob = 5 weeks.
The enumerator changed the entries to be the ages of the adults with his purple pen!

[Hilary]

She wrote with a good adult hand even if she didn't read the instructions. Perhaps she had something to hide!

I can't find birth registrations for those children or, so far, any evidence of marriage or death.

[Bertieone]

????
Indian Baptisms,

Eliza Ann Keepe

Birth Date
4 Nov 1874
Ranikhet, Bengal, India
Baptism
6 Dec 1874
Age
0
Baptism
Ranikhet, Bengal, India
Father
William John Keepe
Mother
Eliza

[Bertieone]

1891
Toxteth Park,
RG12 P2931 F29 Page3

William J Keepe, Head, Army Pensioner, Ireland,1842
Eliza, wife. Ireland 1845
George, son, bn India 1876
Mary, Dau, Bn Lpool 1885

The had 5/6 children born India.

[alex69]

There is an ELLEN FLETCHER birth recorded Sep 1909 West Derby 8b 350.

This would tie in with 18 months of age on 1911 Census.

Alex

[gf27]

I burnt some midnight oil last night hoping something would fall out of the internet, and as is often the case, no it didn't. I think I agree with Hillary and smell a bit of a rat here. One of Roberts brothers was almost certainly a bigamist, so the family may not of had the best set of morals. Maybe one or both of them were still married.
Keep looking at that census record. It really is a bit of a mess. It states quite clearly that Elizabeth was born in India and to the right in the next column it states British subject, I think, and some of the entry in that column is crossed out and I cant read what it did say, most annoying.
May have stumbled on something on public trees on Anc. There is something of my Fletcher family listed and it mentions the "Marriage" of Robert H and Elizabeth A via a copy of that census record. I have sent a message to the tree owner, and I await a reply.
Thank you all for your input, much appreciated.
Gareth.
PS sorry Alex our posts crossed.

[dickiesam]

Keep looking at that census record. It really is a bit of a mess. It states quite clearly that Elizabeth was born in India and to the right in the next column it states British subject, I think, and some of the entry in that column is crossed out and I cant read what it did say, most annoying.

The words as written are, in order...
Brit Subject (inserted by enumerator)
Brit Subject (written by Elizabeth and crossed out by enumerator)
Parentage (inserted by enumerator)
Parentage (written by Elizabeth and crossed out by enumerator)

Ours is not to wonder why.....

[Hilary]

Elizabeth A Keepe appears to have married Daniel Singleton Ames in 1897. In 1901 the family are together but i haven't found them in 1911 yet.

[Bertieone]

I seen the above marriage, Ames/Keepe and what I thought was evidence of them being in the States around 1907/11, however Elizabeth Ames is a widow, 1910. Also found her sons death, William Ames 1918, Mother, Elizabeth Ames, 7 Rendall Rd, Liverpool.
Was Elizabeth Ann and Eliza Ann the same person?

[Bertieone]

This death could mean it wasn't the correct family in the States.
Deaths Mar 1945
Ames Daniel S 69 Liverpool N. 8b 280

[Hilary]

Daniel S Ames married Ethel Garner in 1915 however I have found a Daniel Ames with a wife Ethel living in Wavertree in 1911 stating they have been married under one year. It does seem that this is the same Daniel Singleton Ames who married Elizabeth Keepe.


Also found that Daniel and Elizabeth had another two sons one of whom was born and died in 1907.

I can't find the first two children in 1911 but did discover that William Arthur Ames died in 1918 in an explosion in Dover mother Elizabeth Ames of 7 Rendall Street Everton. Do you know the address of the Fletchers around 1918 - 1920

[Hilary]

Found the boys William Ames 13, George 11 and Walter 9 are all in the Industrial School for boys at 1 Everton Terrace Liverpool just indexed as Ames.

Why aren't they with one of their parents?

[gf27]

Team I think that you have done yourselves proud. Never in the field of human genealogy has such a dig been carried out by so few
This afternoon I forgot about the wedding, parentage and all of that side, and concentrated on the Children, Ellen Elsie Fletcher and Richard Jacob Fletcher.
It would appear, neither child was born, baptised, married or died. There is no record for any of that Well not on the sites I have available to me anyway.
I thought my original request was fairly mundane for you guys, well you know what thought did. But well done to everybody that looked into things for me,, much appreciated, thank you.
I think the time has come to leave this thread on file.
Cheers. Gareth.
PS Don't get too comfortable, I still need two brothers and a sister in the same family looking into. Me thinks it best to leave it for while.
PPS have noted that that some reply's have come in while I have been writing this, but I will still send. The address of the Fletchers that I know of is Rawlingson road, Old Swan.