Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi

Can any one find the above person from the 1871-1901 Census, I have James on the 1911, where he states he was born 1867 Liverpool, plus his Army Records and his marriage in 1902 to a Martha Case Holy Cross RC St. Helens Lancs. The marriage was listed in James's Army records from Anc.. no Father listed. James died 1949 in Liverpool.

Thanks Margie

Hi Margie,
If he was a serving soldier and abroad in 1881, 1891 and 1901 he would be unlikely to be recorded in a census.

A few questions to push the search along.....
1) What was his father's name on the marriage cert to Martha Case?
2) What was his Army number and regiment?
3) When and where was he discharged?

His age at death is in line with his given YoB of 1867 but his name is entered as Heffernan not Hefferman... Typo?
Death: JAMES HEFFERNAN
Birth year: 1867
Age: 82
Death year.qtr: 1949 / Mar
LIVERPOOL NORTH - Volume 10D - Page 513

Hi DS,

The wife and children are recorded on the Army paper, no cert and no father's name.

Army numbers, 36076, 363932, RFA, I think, discharged 1918.

Possible porkies told to marry a younger wife.
Baptism,
Jacobus Heffernan, mother,Elizabethae Heffernan, no Father.

Birth Date:
25 Aug 1863

Baptism Date:St Nicholas, Lancashire, England
3 Sep 1863

Army numbers, 36076, 363932, RFA, I think, discharged 1918.

Hi Bert,
Re 1918... In the 1911 he is an Army Pensioner. Given his age I doubt he would have signed up again?

Hi DS & Bert,

Bert was just about to post, when you posted the info DS asked for thanks.

His wife Martha was born 1876.

That looks like the Baptism for James,

James first signed up in 1886 Service Number 54705 RFA at Newcastle on Tyne.

Then once again in 1914 to 1918 according to his service records.

Where was James in 1871/1881.

Thanks Margie

dickiesam wrote:

Army numbers, 36076, 363932, RFA, I think, discharged 1918.

Hi Bert,
Re 1918... In the 1911 he is an Army Pensioner. Given his age I doubt he would have signed up again?

Signed up 1914, promoted, RSM, WO, 1915. In France 1917/18.

If Bert's find of a baptism is correct, is this the birth with a mis-spelling...?
Births Sep 1863: HEFFERON, James - Liverpool 8b 193

And is this the mother getting married?
Marriages Sep 1864: Anderson, Christopher and [possibly] Heffernan, Elizabeth - Liverpool 8b 511

And if that is right, is this the family in 1871?
RG10 Piece 1899 Folio 148 Page 28
Address: Mill Lane, Newton, Warrington, Lancashire
Christopher, Anderson Head 36 1835 Printer compositor - Ireland
Elizabeth Anderson Wife 25 1846 - Liverpool
James Anderson Son 7 1864 - Liverpool
Joseph Anderson Son 2 1869 - Newton, Lancs

If James had to produce some form of ID when enlisting he may have produced one with Heffernan as his correct surname.

According to his records, prior to his marriage to Martha Case in St Helens 17/04/1902 his next of kin appears to have been an uncle, Peter[?] Barry of 40 Prince Edward Street, Liverpool. His children were Gertrude bn on 18/05/1903 and George Edward bn 8/11/1906 [baptised 18/11/1906].

He is absent from the 1881 census because he was in India and in 1891 he was in West Africa.

PM sent.

Witness, Barry

Bertieone wrote:

Witness, Barry

Bingo! Very interesting that there's a Margaret[?] Barry as a witness and James has an Uncle Peter[?] Barry as next-of-kin.

Oh lookee here............

1871: RG10 Piece 3789 Folio 108 Page 15
Address: Christian Street, Liverpool
Peter Barry Head 33 1838 Brushmaker - Manchester
Margaret Barry Wife 28 1843 - Liverpool
Thomas Barry Son 11 1860 - Liverpool
Elizabeth Barry Dtr 9 1862 -
Charles Barry Son 3 1868 - Liverpool,
Mary Ellen Barry Dtr 1 1870 - Liverpool
Catharine Hefferman Sister 19 1852 - Liverpool
Annie Hefferman Sister 11 1860 - Liverpool
Maria Farcey Visitor 33 1838 - ?
Patrick Conlan Lodger 60 1811 - Sligo, Ireland

DS & Bert,
Wow what can I say, will read through all what you have found to-night, and get back to-morrow.
Thanks once again
Margie

For DS & Bert,
Took some working out, this is what I have now.

John Hefferman married Elizabeth Flyn 1840 St Peter L.Pool.
1861 Piece 2667 Folio 13.

John & Elizabeth with children
John 15
Elizabeth 13
Catherine 10
Mary 8
Ann 1.

My thinking is that the Elizabeth is the mother of the James I was looking for, even though she would be only 16/17, and definitely the Elizabeth who married Christopher Anderson 1864 Holy Cross Liverpool as found by Bert,

1871 Census,
Where Catherine & Elizabeth are with the Barry family.
Peter Barry & Margaret Hefferman appear to have married twice I have found an earlier marriage for them in 1858, plus the marriage in 1876 why I don't know.

I would like to thank both DS & Bert who without there help I would not have found the correct family.

Margie

I thought I'd look at the note, Barry/Heffernan Catholic marriage, translation,

Apostolic dispensation obtained grade of consanguinity ?


Consanguinity
Consanguinity ("blood relation", from the Latin consanguinitas) is the property of being from the same kinship as another person. In that aspect, consanguinity is the quality of being descended from the same ancestor as another person.

The 1858 marriage appears to be the same couple,

Is it possible they had to marry again with permission from the church because they were related?
perhaps unknown when first marrying.

Hi Bert,
Not really sure if I understand that ?
Margie

It could be that they were cousins, unlikely to have been in-laws as it wasn't legal to marry "deceased wife's sister" and equivalent.

Mary A,
Thank you, but why would they marry twice 1858 & 1876 definitely the same couple
Margie

Perhaps the first marriage would have been null and void had they not gained permission off the church to marry, having gained that permission, marrying again in 1876 made it legal.