Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi Everyone,

I've come to a dead end and am hoping someone can help. I'm looking for a Thomas Britton, born approx.1864/66, I'm trying to find out where he was married in Liverpool. He lived in Jonville Road, Liverpool, with my Gran, Jeanie Britton, who moved up to Scotland in 1926. Jeanie had 4 of a family and every time she fell pregnant, she came back down to have her babies. If they lived in Jonville Street, what school would they have gone to in that area. I can find him in the Census OK.but nothing as far as getting married. I know he went to London as a Plumber, but don't know when. I know it's a lot to ask, but even a guide in where to look next. I've been off site for a few months but thanks to Mary A. and her infinite patience, it's great to be back in the loop.Thanks for any help I get. Marie.

Welcome back, can you post details of the censuses you have him in and whether they say he is Married/Widowed or whatever. What relationship was he to Jeannie? And do you know that he did actually marry, perhaps you know his wife's first name?

Hi Marie,
The only married Thomas Britton who is a plumber I have so far found is this one in 1891. Is this your Thomas?
RG12 Piece 2962 Folio 4 Page 1
Address: 2 Smeaton Street, Liverpool.
James Finner Head 62 1829 Pitch Boiler - Liverpool
Jane Finner Wife 60 1831 - Liverpool
Joseph Finner Son 16 1875 Manager In Coal Yard - Liverpool
James Finner Grandson 13 1878 Assistant In Coal Yard - Liverpool
William Finner Grandson 5 1886 - Liverpool
Thomas Britton Son In Law 24 1867 Plumber - Liverpool
Emma Britton Daughter 22 1869 - Liverpool
Jane Britton Granddaughter 2 1889 - Liverpool

Problem is.. it would appear that Thomas and Emma were not in fact married. There isn't a match in the GRO unless they wed outside England and Wales. And there are no matches in Scotland.

Perhaps he was already married? In the 1910+1 Emma says she was married in or abt 1889 when their daughter Jane was born. That could be a wee fib the legitimise Jane's birth.

Hi Marie,
Is Jeanie actually Jane? She is missing from the 1911 England/Wales census but there is one of the right age in Scotland for that census.

If Jeannie/Jane is Thomas's daughter, what name does the birth certificate give for her mother's maiden name?

Possible in 1890
HALL Emmaline BRITTEN Thomas Liverpool, Holy Trinity

3 January 1890 Thomas Britten 23 Bachelor Plumber 4 Soho Street
Father Robert Britten, Engineer
Emmaline Hall 23 Spinster 4 Soho Street
Father James Hall, Carpenter
Witnesses Thomas Hargrave & Alice Pye

The only married Thomas Britton who is a plumber I have so far found is this one in 1891. Is this your Thomas?
RG12 Piece 2962 Folio 4 Page 1
Address: 2 Smeaton Street, Liverpool.
James Finner Head 62 1829 Pitch Boiler - Liverpool
Jane Finner Wife 60 1831 - Liverpool
Joseph Finner Son 16 1875 Manager In Coal Yard - Liverpool
James Finner Grandson 13 1878 Assistant In Coal Yard - Liverpool
William Finner Grandson 5 1886 - Liverpool
Thomas Britton Son In Law 24 1867 Plumber - Liverpool
Emma Britton Daughter 22 1869 - Liverpool
Jane Britton Granddaughter 2 1889 - Liverpool

This would appear to be the same family in 1881 under the name of FENNER:

RG11 Piece 3681 Folio 92 Page 44
Address: 70, Commercial Road, Kirkdale.
James B Fenner Head 48 1833 Pitch Boiler (Man Chem) - Liverpool
Jane Fenner Wife 47 1834 - Liverpool
Emma Fenner Daughter 15 1866 - Liverpool
Joseph Fenner Son 5 1876 Scholar - Liverpool
Joseph Martindale Step-father 58 1823 - Liverpool
Marlin Martindale Mother 67 1814 - Liverpool

Lancashire OPC has the following marriage for James and Jane:

Marriage: 27 Jan 1852 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
James Bell Fenner - (X), Minor, Shipwright, Bachelor, Lumber St
Jane Hall - (X), Minor, Spinster, Dryden St
Groom's Father: John Fenner, Sawyer
Bride's Father: George Hall, Book Keeper
Witness: William Cork; Sarah Oliphant
Married by Banns by: A. J. Tomlin B. A. Curate

So, it would appear that when Emma married Thomas Britten she used her mother's maiden name of Hall and also called herself Emmaline

I wonder if this is the reason why.....

FamilySearch has a marriage for Emma Fenner to James Gilman (FreeBMD shows Gilmour) in 1883 in Kirkdale:

Name: James Gilman
Spouse's Name: Emma Fenner
Spouse's Birth Date: 1866
Spouse's Age: 17
Event Date: 25 Feb 1883
Event Place: St. Mary'S, Kirkdale, Lancaster, England
Father's Name: James Gilman
Spouse's Father's Name: James Fenner

The National Archives then have a divorce for Emma and James in 1891:
Reference: J 77/475/4465
Divorce Court File: 4465.
Appellant: Jamed Gilmour.
Respondent: Emma Gilmour.
Co-respondent: Thomas Britton.
Type: Husband's petition for divorce [hd].
Date: 1891

So it looks like Emma may not have been quite divorced from husband#1 when she married Thomas!!

Alison

As Tina would say... Great wombatting Alison! Looks like you may have shone a light on the skeleton in the cupboard!

Great tying the two sets of clues together Alison, I had problems doing that.

The GRO Index for the first marriage of Emma Fenner has JAMES GILMOUR as her spouse. Looks like FamilySearch has mistranscribed the entry at Mar 1883 Fenner, Emma married GILMOUR, James - W.Derby 8b 641.

Hi Everyone,

I can't believe how you all managed to find out so much about about my naughty Gt.Grandma Emmmaline and Gt.Grandad Thomas Britton. It'll take me a while to transcribe all this info. and get it in some sort of timeframe. I couldn't understand how I couldn't find a Marriage for them, as I thought in those times the parents would have been very strict about such things. I'm coming down next year and would like to visit the local school where my Aunties and Uncles would have attended. I've been to Kirkdale Cemetery where Emma was buried, but although we had the plot no. and area, there were no graves to be seen. Apparently, if someone died during the war, the Council buried them in a part of the cemetery set aside for War-time burials, presumably because neither the Council and Families were short of funds. Please, if I'm wrong, please let me know by return. I know how sad I am that I can't visit my Families grave. I'll dig into this further when I come up to your Tuesday Afternoons help classes. I'll go now and try towork out all these dates. A great big thankyou for all your hard work. Hopefully, I'll improve as I go on.Marie.

Hi Marie,
As my ancestors had a number of similar skeletons in their cupboards I was surprised that James Gilmour went to the major expense of a divorce. Back in the day it would have been a very expensive procedure for a working man to initiate. The usual alternative was to leave the 'original' wedded spouse and set up with another spouse in a common-law relationship until the first spouse had died. Happened 3 times in my lot!

It's usually well worth while getting a copy of the divorce papers from the National Archives, the last time I applied for a set not only did it give me all the reasons for the application but also a copy of the marriage certificate too, a bargain.

Have you asked Allerton Cemetery Lodge if they are able to give you the names of others who are in the same grave? just in case it was a family grave.

Hi Mary,

Could you tell me who I should write to, to get the Divorce cert.of Emma & James Gilmour. I'm going to look at all the info everyone gave me and check if Thomas ever did marry Emma. How much should I have to pay. Is there a ste I could look up, just to get to know a bit about it.Many ~Thanks.Marie.

The divorce records are on Ancestry so if you have a subscription, they can be downloaded.

This should be the relevant document:
http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2465/ ... rchResults

If you have a problem accessing it, let me know and I'll see if I can help.