Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'm new to this forum. I live in Victoria, Australia. My great grandfather Alfred Vernon Stanley (as he was known in Australia) DOB 18/10/1880, though according to his marriage cert he was 36yrs on 27/12/15 which would make his year of birth 1879.

According to his Australian marriage cert his was born in Knowsley, Lancashire. My great aunt tells me he lived in Knowsley & Preston. He served in the Boer War before immigrating to Australia. My great aunt believes he came to Australia directly from the war, not returning to England before immigrating. She believes he immigrated c1907. She has not been able to find any shipping records. He did tell them he went to a Grammar school she believes either Knowsley or Preston and she describes him as a real English gentleman so feels this to be true.

According to Alfred's marriage certificate his father Frederick William Stanley was a farmer and his mother was Eleanor (?spelling) Vernon Desmond. Alfred talked about his sister Ivy. Alfred named a son Frederick Vernon and a daughter Eleanor and another daughter Ivy. We believe the first names of his parents to be correct. My great aunt has wondered if he did change the surnames of his parents once in Australia as she has not been able to find any records. My mum tells the story that Alfred told them he had shrapnel in his leg from the Boer War, he walked with a stick (not sure if that was only later in life), however my great aunt was unaware of that story. I would like to find birth details, confirm his parents name, war service records and school records. Much appreciated

Hi and welcome to the forum.

For the benefit of our other members, this query was originally posted on our Facebook group where both myself and Simone came to dead ends in our searches and we suggested that more heads might discover some results.

Even using a very wide search including all counties rather than just Lancashire, we have not been able to find a marriage between a Stanley and either an Eleanor/Ellen Vernon or Desmond, nor a match between a Vernon and Desmond.

We wondered if you would share a copy of the documents in case we could perhaps make out a different name from the handwriting, instructions for posting a scan/photograph in your post are here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =16&t=9817

Lots of trees on Ancestry including your one. Some other message board activity. No progress on the parentage. Some possibles for military and emigration records for him which you already have but are worth noting by other researchers:-

UK, Military Campaign Medal and Award Rolls, 1793-1949

Name: A Stanley
Campaign or Service: South Africa - Second Boer War
Service Date: 1899-1902
Service Location: South Africa
Regiment or Unit Name: 1st Battalion The King's Liverpool
Regimental Number: 5046

UK, Outward Passenger Lists, 1890-1960

Name: Alfred Stanley
Gender: Male
Age: 25
Birth Date: abt 1882
Departure Date: 6 Jun 1907
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Destination Port: Sydney, Australia
Ship Name: Runic


Blue

Thanks Blue, would you think that means it's possible he was actually in England between 1902 and 1907?

The image for that military record includes the following information:-

5046, Private, Stanley A, Defence of Ladysmith, Invalided 17 Aug 1900.

The Outward Passenger List says he was a clerk so he must have been working in England before emigrating.


Blue

I'm wondering if that military record refers to Alexander Stanley not Alfred Stanley. I did a search on FMP using A Stanley & 5046. There was one result for Alexander Stanley born about 1877, event date 1895 (probably when he enlisted), British Army Service Records, St Simons Liverpool Lancashire England. If Alexander Stanley is 5046 then the one I posted earlier is the wrong military record.


Blue

The nearest I have found for a Frederick William Stanley / Eleanor(?) Vernon Desmond marriage is this one... a bit late for Alfred's alleged birth year?

Marriages Dec 1888: STANLEY, Frederick William possibly married HAMMOND, Elizabeth Lavinia - Elham 2a 1779

I still can't see anything on this man

I've been through the registers for St Mary's Knowsley on Lancs OPC site...there are only a couple and they seem to be connected to the Earls of Derby (Stanley being their family name) There are certainly none in the census living in the village. I also looked at the Households of the Earl of Derby.... closest name I got there was a Joseph VERNON age 32 unmarried in 1901...
The Grammar school for the area was at Prescot not Preston, although the Earls are also connected to Preston and there was a Grammar school there,

Here is the list of pupils of Prescot Grammar School from 1877 onwards... There is a Stanley but from 1919-1921 if I am reading it right,

http://www.prescotian.org.uk/prescotregistry.htm

There is a similar roll for Preston Grammar School but some of buttons for years missing on my web page, so at at the moment I can't click on right ones Maybe worth making an enquiry direct.

http://www.schoolarms.pgsassociation.or ... .html#Logo


I was thinking he had maybe been an orphan and took the name Stanley. However he seems to have very particular names for his parents, if you know what I mean, and named children after them..

Simone

As for Alfred's birth, if he had been born in or near Knowsley his birth would normally have been registered at the Prescot District Registry Office, but there isn't a match between 1875 and 1885. The only 'near fit' is this one...

Births Dec 1877: STANLEY, Alfred - W. Derby 8b 602

You could order the birth cert from the GRO http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ and specify that the father must be Frederick William Stanley. If the GRO can't find a match they will refund the £9.25 fee in full.

coincidentally, the 16th Earl of Derby had a son, Frederick William Stanley, b 1878 d 1942...

dickiesam wrote:As for Alfred's birth, if he had been born in or near Knowsley his birth would normally have been registered at the Prescot District Registry Office, but there isn't a match between 1875 and 1885. The only 'near fit' is this one...

Births Dec 1877: STANLEY, Alfred - W. Derby 8b 602

You could order the birth cert from the GRO http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/ and specify that the father must be Frederick William Stanley. If the GRO can't find a match they will refund the £9.25 fee in full.

I think this is the baptism and the death index for the child in that birth index:-

Name: Alfred Stanley
Baptism Date: 7 Oct 1877
Parish: Wavertree, Holy Trinity
Father's Name: Henry Stanley
Mother's name: Adelaide Stanley

Name: Alfred Stanley
Registration Year: 1881
Registration Quarter: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at Death: 3
Registration district: West Derby
Volume: 8b
Page: 477


Blue

Thank you everyone very much for your comments...Here is Alfred's marriage certificate... (hope this works!!)

julielake wrote:Thank you everyone very much for your comments...Here is Alfred's marriage certificate... (hope this works!!)

I can only see a small image of this record.


Blue

On FMP there was one military service record result for an Alexander Stanley born about 1877, event date 1895 (probably when he enlisted), British Army Service Records, St Simons Liverpool Lancashire England. Can anyone see if this Alexander Stanley is number 5046? If so then the military record that we thought was Alfred is wrong.


Blue

Blue70 wrote:On FMP

Terms and Conditions for FMP don't allow us to look up or request look ups from their site, however this information should be available from the National Archives.

The Alexander Stanley of St Simons, Liverpool is Number 4539, with an address of 28 Soho Street and he was 18 years old at the Militia Attestation of the 3rd Battalion South Lancashire Regiment on 12 September, 1895.

Also this is the same person who on 31 October, 1895 joined the Kings Liverpool Regiment Number 5046.

His father was Robert so I think this can rule him out as being related.

Hi Blue

I clicked on it and tried cropping and resizing but wasn't much better..perhaps julie could have a go and repost. .
I thought the age looked a bit suspect. .prob is 36 but also lools like 56.

The son of the Earl I posted earlier Lt Col Frederick William Stanley is a similar age.....wonder if our missing man served under/with him in the Boer war

I wonder if the image could be rescanned at a higher resolution?

Blue70 wrote:The image for that military record includes the following information:-

5046, Private, Stanley A, Defence of Ladysmith, Invalided 17 Aug 1900.


Blue

Thanks Mary. So unfortunately the A Stanley mentioned above is not Alfred it was another man called Alexander Stanley.


Blue

Blue70 wrote:unfortunately the A Stanley mentioned above is not Alfred it was another man called Alexander Stanley.

Sadly another dead end.

There are vernon and desmond connections to the derby's but going way back......
Lt Col Frederick William Stanley served in Boer war 1899 to 1902...
I know I'm making my own story now but can't help think he may have created a father......
Plenty of Derby farms/farmland around knowsley hall...so maybe occupation created for father too.

Soo frustrating. .. nothing even for parents or sister Ivy, although a couple of ellen desmonds in census

Julie, does your great aunt know if he kept contact with anyone back here in England.