Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I wish to apply for a death certificate for Edward Ernest [or Ernest Edward] WYNNE whose probate entry states that he died at sea on 28 July 1940. He was chief steward aboard ss City of Brisbane (Ellerman Lines), which was bombed a few days later with the loss of eight lives, off the Thames estuary.
I cannot see a normal registration for him on FreeBMD and am unfamiliar with the Merchant Navy procedure. Any expert who can help, please?
He is believed to have been buried at Allerton Cemetery and I hope to find details of his grave and plot number.

Daggers

No expert me... but I have this if it helps.....

Death: Ernest E Wynne
Birth Date: 1895
Death Date: 28 Jul 1940
Age: 45
Birth Place: Birkenhead
Place Of Death: Moray Firth
Vessel: City Of Brisbane
Series: BT334; Box: 0096; Page 7
Record set: Maritime deaths 1854-1972

The above death is recorded only in the Board of Trade Maritime Deaths ledger. This would normally lead me to believe his body may not have been recovered and identified. However, a further search produced a GRO hit...

Death: ERNEST E WYNNE
Year: 1940
Vessel: CITY OF BRISBANE
Age At Death: 45
Year Of Birth: 1895
Page 194:
Record Source: GRO Marine Death Indices (1903 to 1965)
Record set: British nationals died overseas 1818-2005

This means you should be able to apply to Southport for a death cert.

I may be misunderstanding you but the death certificate won't help with the burial details. It might be worth looking in the Echo to see if his funeral arrangements are recorded or have a look at the Allerton Cemetery records for around the date of death.

DS
For someone claiming to be no expert you have certainly delivered the goods. I shall be on the wire to Southport...

Hilary
The death cert is needed to establish the cause of death. It was at first thought that EE Wynne was a war victim, unrecognised by CWGC, but it now seems more likely that he died from another cause. It is a case of picking up all available evidence.

Thanks all round
D

Hi Daggers,
According to Ellerman Lines War Losses 1939 - 1945, the SS CITY OF BRISBANE [ID: 143641] was bombed by enemy aircraft in the Thames Estuary on 2/8/40. There were 9 deaths among the crew. Your man appears to have died at sea from causes other than as a war casualty, since he died a month earlier on the 28th Jul 1940.

I was going to offer to try to do a look up on Tuesday for Allerton Cemetery, but it seems that the records held are for 06 Dec 1876, 07 Apr 1883 - 27 Oct 1919, so sorry, but if you phone Allerton Cemetery Lodge with the date then hopefully they will give you the Grave Ref. without charge.

Mary Allerton Cemetery did not open till 1909. The records are at Liverpool on MF and I could be wrong? but I think they go up to 2000.

DS: thanks again.
Mary: I think Katie is right, and if you can look for EE Wynne's burial info - grave number etc -when you are next at the RO that would be an enormous help.

D

Will do - wish the RO had a decent catalogue, those dates were copied from what I found.

Entry No. 48133 General
August 2nd 1940
Ernest Edward Wynne
45 years.
Ship Steward "City of Brisbane".
Address 48 Victoria Road, Parish Liverpool
Mode of Burial - Private
Order No. 46502
Section 2D
Grave No. 253
EEW Jones performed the Ceremony
Name of Owner - Reta Mary Wynne

Daggers, in case you don't have it there's a MN Record Card for Ernest Ed. Wynne starting at 09/03/1923 with 12 signings-on up to 03/08/1937 when he joined the City of Brisbane. If you are unable to get it let me know.

Mary - brilliant, and it is not even Tuesday yet!

DS - thanks for that lead. I have to go out now, but will look for the card on return and let you know if I need more help from you.

A comment on the war: I looked in the Times online for any reference to the bombing of the City of Brisbane. No luck, but I was struck by the number of shipping company advertisements still displayed, offering passage to destinations round the world - but no cruises then, as we know them now.

D

daggers wrote:A comment on the war: I looked in the Times online for any reference to the bombing of the City of Brisbane. D

Some details on the bombing of the City Of Brisbane on the 2nd of August 1940 here...
http://www.naval-history.net/xDKWW2-4008-21AUG01.htm

daggers wrote:Mary - brilliant, and it is not even Tuesday yet!

Got carried away with a bit of research I was doing at home but needed to look something up - I thought at the Record Office. Went with a list of three things to look up plus yours - yours was the only one I was lucky with there.

dickiesam wrote:Daggers, in case you don't have it there's a MN Record Card for Ernest Ed. Wynne starting at 09/03/1923 with 12 signings-on up to 03/08/1937 when he joined the City of Brisbane. If you are unable to get it let me know.

Found another two cards for your man...
Wynne, ERNEST EDWARD [series 1895 — 1918] and Wynne, ERNEST [series 1895 — 1921]. One has a photo and I think this may have been his first signing aboard the SS Metagama on 8th Feb 1919.

It seems that, even without evidence from the death cert, the death of Ernest Wynne was not caused by enemy action, and is certainly unrelated to the bombing of the City of Brisbane.
Thanks to Mary's information I have seen his gravestone which shows the same date of death as the probate entry and has no reference to 'enemy action' or similar.
From another source I have learned that seven of the crew members, listed as 'Indian Merchant Navy' died on the day of the bombing and their bodies were not recovered; another, of the 'Merchant Navy' though with an Indian name, died on 11 August and was buried at Brookwood, Surrey. These eight are recorded by CWGC.

Many thanks to all who have helped with this enquiry.

Daggers

Hi All, I'm new to this Forum so please excuse me, the E. E. Wynne in question was my Grandfather and as far as I can gather passed away due to Cerebral Malaria while on board City of Brisbane. Although I've not seen his grave I am sure it is in Allerton Cemetery. I do have more info about his capture and interment as a POW in the 1st World War. Hope this of some help to you.

Hi and welcome to the Forum. Daggers is going to be very pleased to hear from you.

Hi Kawasaki.
Yes welcome to the forum. What a good start by you, yes daggers will be made up with that info. Well done.

Gareth.
PS on a personal note to Kawasaki. I lived in Bedworth for quite a few years