Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi,
I'm new to this forum so I am hoping that someone may be able to help me.
I have been desperately trying to knock down a brick wall in my family tree for months now. My 2nd great grandfather, Frederick William Davies, married Alice Halewood in 1897 in Liverpool at St Nicholas Church. The marriage certificate says that Frederick was 21, so that would put his birth year around 1876/1875. However, I have been unable to find Frederick on any census for England and Wales. His occupation at the time of his marriage was Mariner and he lived at 30 Queen Anne Street (assuming in Liverpool). His father, William, was deceased at the time of the marriage and was listed as being an upholsterer.
I have not even been able to find any birth record for Frederick as I do not know the name of his mother, or even whether he had any brothers or sisters, or if was even born in Liverpool.
Later on, his daughter's birth certificate, lists him as being a Mercantile Seaman and then on her marriage certificate, he was listed as being Sailor (not recorded as being deceased, so assume he was still alive). Not being able to find any records relating to his service at sea has also resulted in a dead end.
I have found many records, as you can imagine, with Davies being a common surname, particularly one census record of a Frederick William Davies in H M Liverpool Prison, but unable to trace back the records of that entry to see if it is my 2nd great grandfather.
Frederick and Alice had three (maybe four, but I have been unable to find a fourth) children: Ellen Amelia (who died before she was 1), Mary Alice (daughter born 1904) and Jean (son born 1909). Alice and the two children have been found on a 1911 census (admittedly their names have been transcribed wrong, I think they are listed as Daves) but I have been unable to find Fredrick and Alice together.
Any help/guidance/further information would be greatly appreciated. It's getting to be a bit frustrating!
I look forward to hearing from someone.
Thanks and regards,
Sara

Hi and welcome,

Not sure if this your chap, but might lead somewhere.


Name:
Frederick W Davies, 76856, position in company, Master.

Arrival Date:
3 Jun 1919

Birth Date:
abt 1877

Age:
42
Gender:
Male
Ethnicity/ Nationality:
English
Port of Departure:
Liverpool, England
Port of Arrival:
New York, New York
Ship Name:
Kumeric

Hi Sara,
This is the man Bert found...

In Board of Trade Maritime Index....
Surname: DAVIES
First names: Frederick W
Position: Master mariner
Day of birth: 3; Month of birth: January; Year of birth: 1877
Place of birth: Tranmere, Cheshire
Card type: CR10
Discharge number:
Identity certificate no.: 18048
Series: BT350; Date range:1918-1921

There is a record card for this man on Findmypast, together with a great photograph! I suggest you buy a few credits to access the record and download the card and photograph. You will need about 40 credits to view and download. http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/merc ... 2:41&rC=28

1881: RG11 Piece: 3586 Folio: 12 Page: 18
Address: 9 Whitfield St, Tranmere, Birkenhead, Cheshire
KEARNEY, John J B Head 42 1839 Outdoor Officer H M Customs - Liverpool, Lancashire
KEARNEY, Clara V Wife 40 1841 - Liverpool, Lancashire
KEARNEY, Frederick E Son 14 1867 Scholar -
WALKER, Ellen Sister u/m 23 1858 Stationer - Manchester, Lancashire
DAVIES, Fred W Visitor 4 1877 - Tranmere, Cheshire

From a later post this Fred' W appears to be Frederick Wardlaw Davies.

The only Frederick William birth registered in 1877 is in Chester District. But I don't think it is your man. While his father is indeed a William, the 1901 census says this Frederick, and his siblings, were born in Great Mollington, Cheshire.
Births Jun 1877: DAVIES, Frederick William - Chester 8a 439

This Frederick is married and is here in 1910+1:
DAVIES, Frederick William Head Married 33 1878 Farmer - bn Mollington, Cheshire
His wife is: DAVIES, Lydia Hannah [Md 4 yrs] 30 1881 - Mollington, Cheshire

FMP offer here for 50 free credits:-

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/offers/tv-offer


Blue

With the additional information from DS, I think the Master may be Frederick Wardlaw Davies, so tread carefully.

Bertieone wrote:With the additional information from DS, I think the Master may be Frederick Wardlaw Davies, so tread carefully.

Birth: DAVIES, Frederic Wardlaw
Registration district: Birkenhead, Cheshire
Year of registration: 1877; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 8A; Page no: 554

This ties in with the 1881 census I posted.
Sara, are you sure his second forename was William?

Later on, his daughter's birth certificate, lists him as being a Mercantile Seaman and then on her marriage certificate, he was listed as being Sailor (not recorded as being deceased, so assume he was still alive). Not being able to find any records relating to his service at sea has also resulted in a dead end.

On reviewing what we have posted so far, I think it is unlikely that her father would be listed on the marriage cert as a 'sailor' if he was in fact a Master Mariner [a man qualified to be captain of a sea-going vessel]. It would be helpful if you could post the date and place of this daughter's marriage and her name of course.

I agree DS

The 1911 census shows them living at 6a, 8 court, Rose Vale,

Alice and 2 children,

RG14 P22529.

Regarding the cert for this marriage...
DAVIES, Frederick William married HALEWOOD, Alice
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1897; Quarter of registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 177

Can you please post Alice's age and her father's name and occupation, together with the names of the witnesses. It is worth noting that given ages on marriage certs can be misleading as a guide to a year of birth. There are a number of reasons why both bride and groom may tell porkies and say they are older or even younger than they actually are. My 18 year old maternal g.father claimed to be 22 when he married his 17 year old bride who had given birth to his son 6 months earlier. Mind you, her father was a coal miner from St Helens!

Hi again Sara,
Going back to Square One.....
The fact Frederick married in Liverpool, and a small fib or error perhaps regarding his age, suggests one of these being your Frederick.
Births Dec 1875: Davies, Frederick William - West Derby 8b 435
Births Jun 1876: DAVIES, Frederick William - Liverpool 8b 164

Because you know his father's name you could apply for a birth cert online from the GRO. It will cost £9.25. However, when you are completing the online form and get to the 'Certificate choice' page, after ticking the Birth Cert box, there's a question at the bottom asking whether the GRO reference is known. Tick the 'No' box and just enter 1876. Even though you know the Index Reference [Qtr, Volume and Page numbers, etc], don't enter anything else here. Only go for the cert with a birth year of 1876. Don't go for 2 certs.

The 'Delivery address details' page comes next, and after that a new page will open allowing you to enter the names of the parents. Enter William here. The GRO will do a search 1 year either side of the given year. If they don't find the cert with the exact details you specified they will refund the full fee.

Here hoping both Fredericks didn't have a father named William!
Good luck

Sara, before you apply for a birth cert it would be worth checking this man's MN record card on Findmypast. If Frederick did fib about his age, there's a card with a photo that might show a family resemblance etc. Use the free credits offer posted by Blue.

Surname: DAVIES
First names: Frederick William
Date of birth: 8th December, 1882
Place of birth: Newport, Monmouthshire
Card type: CR10
Identity certificate no.: 399400
Series: BT350; Date range:1918-1921
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/search/merc ... 5&keyWord=

When did Frederick William die?

Is he here?
Death: DAVIES, Frederick W
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1920; Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 38
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 562

Death: DAVIES, Frederick W
Registration district: Liverpool South
Year of registration: 1943; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death: 60
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 216

Thanks for the info DS. And huge thanks to Blue who posted the offer from FMP.
I've downloaded the MN record from FMP, and I guess if you stare at something long enough the picture will have a passing resemblance to a member of your family, so I've enlisted my mother to give me her opinion.
I have absolutely no idea when Frederick died, it was bad enough trying to find out when he was born! I'll order the certs and keep my fingers crossed.
You have all been absolutely amazing in trying to help me break down the brick walls.
Thank you!
Sara

You are most welcome Sara!

If you decide to take a chance on a death cert, while you won't be able to use the widow's name as a reference, it might be a worthwhile 'investment' to further the search and eliminate a 'possible' death. The cert will have the occupation and address of the deceased, and the name/address of the informant and their relationship to the deceased. If the informant is Alice, his wife, you are on a 'winner'.

Background...

If Alice's father on the marriage cert was also a William [a mason] then this is probably her in 1881...
RG11 Piece: 3593 Folio: 119 Page: 89
Address: 79 Collingwood St, Liverpool.
HALEWOOD, William Head 35 1846 Stonemason - Liverpool, Lancashire
HALEWOOD, Margaret Wife 33 1848 - Liverpool, Lancashire
HALEWOOD, Sarah Ann Dtr 14 1867 - Liverpool, Lancashire
HALEWOOD, William Son 6 1875 - Liverpool, Lancashire
HALEWOOD, Alice Dtr 2 1879 - Liverpool, Lancashire
HALEWOOD, Jno Patrick Son 0 1881 - Liverpool, Lancashire

Possibly one of her siblings was a witness at her marriage?

Any idea when she died?
Death? DAVIES, Alice E
Registration district: Liverpool North
Year of registration: 1949; Quarter of registration: Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 69
Volume no: 10D; Page no: 307

Regarding the 'E' in her name, there were only 2 births to fit the YoB 1880 [+/- 2 years] given in the 1910+1 census and both had 'E'...
HAILWOOD, Alice Elizabeth - West Derby 1878
HAILWOOD, Alice Elizabeth - West Derby 1879

Is it possible we can find a will to match these deaths? We might be able to eliminate one or both, or confirm one as being Sara's Frederick.

1) Death: DAVIES, Frederick W
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1920; Jun Qtr
Age at death: 38

2) Death: DAVIES, Frederick W
Registration district: Liverpool South
Year of registration: 1943; Mar Qtr
Age at death: 60

1920 death, died at 147 Mill Rd, buried St Mary, Edge Hill.

1943, 126 Smithdown rd, Address, 1 Tillotson terrace, L8,
Admistration to, Frederick William Davies, Railway Checker.

Hi and welcome to the forum. Could you please give the full details from the marriage certificate to help with the search.

In response to DS's request for a Probate entry, sorry none appears for the 1920 entry but this is the other.

DAVIES Frederick William of 1 Tillotson Terrace, Liverpool 8, died 9 March 1943 at 126 Smithdown Road, Liverpool 14. Administration Liverpool 24 May to Frederick William Davies railway checker. Effects £140 5s 9d.

Bertieone wrote:1920 death, died at 147 Mill Rd, buried St Mary, Edge Hill.

1943, 126 Smithdown rd, Address, 1 Tillotson terrace, L8,
Admistration to, Frederick William Davies, Railway Checker.

Both 147 Mill Road and 126 Smithdown Road were hospitals. As Sara's g.father doesn't appear to have had a son of the same name I think the 1920 death could be the one.

In the last census Alice says she has had 5 children but only two survived, Mary Alice aged abt 7 and Jeane [sic], a son aged abt 2. And there is a Birth Jun 1909: DAVIES, Jean - W. Derby 8b 547. Boy or girl? Apparently a boy because we have...
Marriages Jun 1930: Davies, Jean married Hill, Lilian - Liverpool 8b 94