Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello Everyone!

I have a couple of queries:

Can anyone please tell me why there are so few records for the Walton Workhouse? A relative of mine was there between 1905 and 1918, in fact he died there, but I'm not having much luck regarding any records about him.

I've a copy of his burial record stating that he was buried in Walton Park Cemetery on 26th July 1918 but, it seems, he died on 9th January 1918, was it normal back then for there to be a period of 6 months between death and burial?

It also seems that I have the Germans to thank for the fact that there are no cemetery plans/maps for Walton Park Cemetery - thanks a lot!

Hi and welcome to the forum.

From your last comment it would appear that you did receive my email advising you about the lack plans for the Cemetery, but also about the help you may be able to receive, particularly if your ancestor had a military headstone.

I suspect you have workmen to thank for the lack of records for the Workhouse since from my memory somebody has mentioned that some were retrieved from a skip, others probably were not so lucky.

It would be unusual for a period of six months to elapse before burial, but assuming that you have his death certificate from which you have his exact date of death, perhaps there was a coroner's inquest that may have held up matters. The alternative is that the death does not match the burial

The Burial record clearly states that he was buried at Walton Park Cemetery on 26th July 1918. I've ordered a copy of his death cert., which should arrive any day but I'd assumed his death was a day or two before he was buried. You can imagine my shock when the Liverpool Records Office told me he died on 9th January 1918! Unless the burial was held up because of the Spanish Flu epidemic of that year.
My relative was discharged from the army in 1889 so wouldn't have had an army headstone, he was buried in a communal grave so, sadly, won't have a headstone at all.
I've spoken to the office staff at the farm at Walton and, it seems, they can't help as I don't know whether the grave is in the north, south, east or west of the cemetery. I seem to be hitting brick walls whichever way I turn.

AngelaG wrote: Liverpool Records Office told me he died on 9th January 1918!

I would be interested to know which resource they used to discover his date of death as they don't have access to the death certificates.

If they have obtained this information from the Workhouse Records then it may be that there is an error in documentation between the death entry and the burial entry. If they obtained this information from the Workhouse Records it would appear to contradict your claim that there are so few records.

If there was a Coroner's inquest then this will be noted on the Death Certificate.

As advised, you have not given very much information, not even his name, so we are unable to assist further.

give us a clue Angela

I see 3 men buried at Walton Park on 26/07/1918 from Walton Workhouse, looks like burial plot may be in margin of register...

Frederick Brown b c 1855
John Murray b c 1851
James Roberts b c 1857

Simone x

Beat me to it Simone,

http://interactive.ancestry.co.uk/2198/ ... turnRecord

Frederick Brown and John Murray both registered March Qtr 1918, West Derby, ages match,

Sorry Chaps, whatever the numbers in the margin refer to is of no consequence apparently.
I have been searching for the location of my G/Mother there for over a year now and tried just about everything you could possibly think of,including visiting 'the farm' at three differing times of year to avoid overgrowth,lambing etc
My experience and outcome can be read here
http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... =2&t=12883
there has been no change yet, but I have not given up trying.

My own interpretation of the marginal data is - cg = communal grave, (next is a four digit number that MAY refer to a trench or pit and possibly denote the field and compass bearing IF you can find the 'key' to it ?) The date of the burials gives a clue as to how many were buried in each pit and at what level I think. I suspect that the '43,44 or sometimes 45' followed by a letter refers to a register of payments, maybe who and how the church was remunerated then of course there is the amount paid and in some cases mention of whether it is a family grave or had been ordered by the court.
There has to be some logic to it but most of it is missing something.

Thanks Vic doesn't seem very reverent having animals trudging all over them does it

simone wrote:doesn't seem very reverent having animals trudging all over them does it

Seems to be quite a townie opinion. In more rural areas, and definitely in a small village I have visited in Hertfordshire, an area of the churchyard is often fenced off to keep the lambs in. This keeps the grass tidy and nettles and weeds down, so actually is a benefit.

MaryA wrote:

simone wrote:doesn't seem very reverent having animals trudging all over them does it

Seems to be quite a townie opinion. In more rural areas, and definitely in a small village I have visited in Hertfordshire, an area of the churchyard is often fenced off to keep the lambs in. This keeps the grass tidy and nettles and weeds down, so actually is a benefit.

Over here you will often see sheep and goats grazing in a churchyard. As MaryA says, it does keep the grass and weeds down, and their small 'droppings' are soon broken down. Unlike cowpats!

Well I for one am certainly glad I didnt find any of them thar cowpats in the Cem
Although I am assured by my good friend Bridget that cowpats make the best field dressings if you should get injured digging the spuds on the farm

Seriously, it did come as a shock on my first visit but it makes much more sense than it had been for the previous 20 yrs while it slowly dissapeared under the weight of the weeds and the vandalism. Although it is my opinion now that 'the vandals' are in the council chambers and Parliament selling whatever they can find to sell to the 'developers.' (after all,the dead dont vote?)

This is what I received from the Record Office:

“I think he would have been in the workhouse on more than one occasion. We don’t have any registers for 1905.
I have found him in the ledger which we do have (353 WES 13/3) as follows:

Name: Brown, Frederick, born 1854, creed: Church of England
Name of informant: self
Calling: s.a. Navvy
By whose order admitted: master
Cause: blank
Date of admission: 3/5/1917
Date of departure 9/1/1918 Dead
Admitted from: Kirkdale Homes 35 St Anne Street
Name and address of friends: No friends"

The burial record says:

Cg. 2092. 43. V. Name: Frederick Brown. Abode: Walton Workhouse. When Buried: 26th July 1918. Age: 63 yrs.

I have correspondence confirming that he was in the workhouse in 1905 and he was there when the 1911 census was taken.

Would that be the Frederick Brown born London 1858 in the 1911 census? if not could you please give a reference.

Yes, he's the 5th one down on page 69 of the 1911 census for The Liverpool Workhouse and Infirmary. There's just a slight discrepancy in his date of birth.

Records from the London Metropolitan Archives show that in 1905 the Liverpool Union tried to get him "removed" to a/the City of London Union workhouse. However, a letter dated 3rd July 1905, which was sent from the City of London Union to the Liverpool Union, states that Frederick Brown's "entry in the birth register is insufficient without some proof of his identity". A copy of his birth certificate was sent as further evidence but it still wasn't accepted and the Order for Removal was abandoned.

Angela

Do you realise that the Workhouse in the census was the Liverpool one, whereas the one where he died was stated to be in your original post was Walton. I also note that Kirkdale Homes was mentioned in the ledger.

It would be in your interest to make further enquiries with the RO as I suspect he may have been in three different establishments.