Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi all.
Fairly new to family history so struggling a bit. Could do with some help/advice.

My Grandfather, John Thomas Mallen died in Liverpool(West Derby) 1949 aged 67 ,occupation stated as paint Grinder.

I can trace all his children.
The 1911 census shows :
John Mallen aged 28 , Married 10 years, occupation Paint manufacturers labourer, born Liverpool Lancs with an address as: 5a rose Place Liverpool

I have the Marriage certificate of John THomas Mallen. He married at the age of 19 to Mary Ann Ward in 1901.His Occupation was Paint works labourer.
His fathers name was stated as GEORGE Mallen with an occupation of Boiler Scaler.
John Thomas mallens address at the time of his marriage was stated as : 67 Rachel Street Liverpool. This address was not his family address it was the address of one of the witnesses to the marriage.

But now the trouble starts.
From the details above he should have been born abt 1882 in Liverpool with a Father's name of George.
Can find nothing in the earlier census's of a John MALLEN with a father GEORGE. Actually cannot find any John Mallen with a birth year 81/82/83.
I can find a THOMAS MALLON in the 1891 census with a son John aged 9 so gives a birth year of abt 1882.

Anyone with any ideas how I can proceed with trying to find John Thomas Mallen Birth certificate or how to find if there is a link with this Thomas Mallen as his father.

Thanks for your time
--
Tony

Hi Tony,
Have you looked in the Ancestry Liverpool Parish record collection for a baptism?

This is the only birth with a near name I can find in Liverpool. It is out by a year but John may have fibbed about his age when he married... added a year for good measure and 'maturity'. He may have got Thomas at his baptism. One of my g.fathers added 5 years when he married after getting a 17 year old domestic pregnant. He was 18 but on the cert he is 22. Mind you her father was a collier from St Helens....

Birth: MALLON, John
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1884; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 679

dickiesam wrote:Hi Tony,
Have you looked in the Ancestry Liverpool Parish record collection for a baptism?

This is the only birth with a near name I can find in Liverpool. It is out by a year but John may have fibbed about his age when he married... added a year for good measure and 'maturity'. He may have got Thomas at his baptism. One of my g.fathers added 5 years when he married after getting a 17 year old domestic pregnant. He was 18 but on the cert he is 22. Mind you her father was a collier from St Helens....

Birth: MALLON, John
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1884; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 679

Hi DS, thanks for taking the time to reply.
I haven't looked on Ancestry for a baptism record yet but can find nothing for the parish records on FindMyPast.

The birth record of John Mallon that you have shown is one that I am looking at and will probably send for a certificate.
I can understand someone stating the wrong age at marriage but what I cannot understand is why does a 17or 19 year old state that his fathers name is a GEORGE when there does not appear to be any record of a birth for John with a father of George, but there is with a father of Thomas.

RE:

I haven't looked on Ancestry for a baptism record yet but can find nothing for the parish records on FindMyPast.

Findmypast do not have Liverpool parish records in their database.

It is possible John Mallon did not know his father's name if he was illegitimate, for instance. George might have been a name to put into an otherwise embarrassing blank space on the register. Is there an indication on the marriage cert that George Mallon was deceased?

You may have to take a chance on that 1884 birth without specifying the names of parents. But I would search Ancestry for a baptism first.

Hi, Tony,

There's no baptism I can find on Anc for John Thomas.

A possibility as DS has explained, George may well be fictitious,
a small pointer though by no means conclusive is the naming of the children born to the Mallen/Ward combination,

Following the children on the 1911 census,

Gerard 1913, Liverpool 8b 70
Ann 1915, 8b 154
John 1919, 8b 136
Francis 1920, 8b 207
Anthony, 1922, 8b 49
Mary, 1925 8b 128.

No George amongst them, of course father and son might not of got on but as DS suggests, he might not have existed.

I agree with Bert about the 'odd' absence of a George in John Mallon's children. Yet another possibility is that if he was born legitimately, IOW in wedlock, John's mother may have been widowed and remarried while he was a young child. Mallon may have been the surname in her second marriage which became John's when she married. So John may have been born with another surname and that father may have been a George.

Tangled webs and all that!

Bertieone wrote:Hi, Tony,

There's no baptism I can find on Anc for John Thomas.

A possibility as DS has explained, George may well be fictitious,
a small pointer though by no means conclusive is the naming of the children born to the Mallen/Ward combination,

Following the children on the 1911 census,

Gerard 1913, Liverpool 8b 70
Ann 1915, 8b 154
John 1919, 8b 136
Francis 1920, 8b 207
Anthony, 1922, 8b 49
Mary, 1925 8b 128.

No George amongst them, of course father and son might not of got on but as DS suggests, he might not have existed.

Plus there was also Joseph, 2 other Johns, who died, an Ellen died.

Cannot place the Ann in the 1911 census, something to look into.

Have spent the morning looking at the baptism records on Ancestry and the only John Mallen/Mallon that are likely are the 8b 94 and 8B 679 and one of these is likely to come back to Thomas Mallon.

As regards the marriage certificate of John Thomas mallen. It does not indicate that the father was dead. Just gives the name and occupation of the Father.

So I have Probate , Burial, Death, Marriage certificates and 1911 census all showing Mallen.
Copies of the Roman catholic marriage are all written with MALLON.

One thought. I spotted on Ellen's death certificate in 1917 "daughter of John Mallen, private No: 12580 South Lancs regiment(paintworks labourer)
Would any Army records (if any survived) have shown his fathers name.

Thank you all for your help.

Hi Tony,

Unfortunately it doesn't appear that John's records survived, only his Medal Card is available,

Mallon, John
South Lancs, 12580
Labour Corps, 224970.

Bertieone wrote:Hi Tony,

Unfortunately it doesn't appear that John's records survived, only his Medal Card is available,

Mallon, John
South Lancs, 12580
Labour Corps, 224970.

Thanks Bertieone, at least that saved a 9 to 12 month wait from the MOD

Hi and welcome to the forum.

I would suggest that you approach the GRO with a request that they send you the birth certificate, giving the details that you have, ie approximate year, place of birth and father's name. Don't give the reference that you have found in the indexes. They will do a 2-3 year search around the date you give and refund your money if there is not an entry with the correct details. If this happens, then you need to do a rethink.

Re:

Copies of the Roman catholic marriage are all written with MALLON.

From Lancs BMDs: MALLEN, John T and WARD, Mary A [Register Office or Registrar Attended] - 1901 Liverpool.
If the marriage took place in an RC Church then John must have been RC. He may even have been a late convert in order to marry, and would usually have to produce a Baptism Certificate in order for the marriage to take place. So I would look for a baptism right up to the marriage in 1901. If the record you have is a copy of the Parish Register is there a notation at the extreme left of the page, outside of Column 1?

May seem a daft question, but since there was another marriage of a John Mallon in Liverpool in 1901 have you confirmed the mother's maiden name as Ward from one of the children's birth certs from the 3 who were born before 1911?
MALLON, John married either DUDLEY, Mary or MURPHY, Sarah
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1901; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 146

And to add to the 'confusion', John may have thought he was born in Liverpool, but that may be because it was the first place he remembered. He could have been born elsewhere and brought to Liverpool as a very young child.

DS,


Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Josephus Mallen
Name:
Josephus Mallen

Birth Date:
3 Aug 1904
Baptism Date:
14 Aug 1904
Parish:
St Sylvester (Sylvestri)
Father's Name:
Joannis Mallen
Mother's Name:
Mariae Annae Ward
Godfather, Joseph Ward

MaryA wrote:Hi and welcome to the forum.

I would suggest that you approach the GRO with a request that they send you the birth certificate, giving the details that you have, ie approximate year, place of birth and father's name. Don't give the reference that you have found in the indexes. They will do a 2-3 year search around the date you give and refund your money if there is not an entry with the correct details. If this happens, then you need to do a rethink.

Hi MaryA, Thankyou. I will probably end up doing that but have one more avenue to go down.

I found a motheaten half a baptism certificate. From The Church of All Souls, Collingwood St L5. Can make out a date and the fathers name, George Dobbs and mothers maiden name was shown as Mallum (mallon) .
A check on ancestry shows a John Dobbs born 8th Nov 1882, bapt 9th nov 1882.

Must have something to do with the family , no other reason we would have a very old copy. Could be a much older sister , so looking for a birth cert for Elizabeth Dobbs formerly Mallum/mallon, that might throw some light on it.

That might also confirm that the family were RC.

Bertieone wrote:DS,


Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Josephus Mallen
Name:
Josephus Mallen

Birth Date:
3 Aug 1904
Baptism Date:
14 Aug 1904
Parish:
St Sylvester (Sylvestri)
Father's Name:
Joannis Mallen
Mother's Name:
Mariae Annae Ward
Godfather, Joseph Ward

Name:
Josephus Mallen
Yes thats my uncle Joe

dickiesam wrote:Re:

Copies of the Roman catholic marriage are all written with MALLON.

From Lancs BMDs: MALLEN, John T and WARD, Mary A [Register Office or Registrar Attended] - 1901 Liverpool.
If the marriage took place in an RC Church then John must have been RC. He may even have been a late convert in order to marry, and would usually have to produce a Baptism Certificate in order for the marriage to take place. So I would look for a baptism right up to the marriage in 1901. If the record you have is a copy of the Parish Register is there a notation at the extreme left of the page, outside of Column 1?

All the family as far as I am aware have been Catholics. John Thomas and Mary Ann's marriage was solemized at All Souls Church, collingwood St Liverpool.

if you mean the marriage record, I have a copy from the GRO. I also have half a copy (right hand) with no notations issued in 1945 and another one certifying the marriage issued in 1914 but can see no notations on any of them. Both of these copies appear to be from the church records.

May seem a daft question, but since there was another marriage of a John Mallon in Liverpool in 1901 have you confirmed the mother's maiden name as Ward from one of the children's birth certs from the 3 who were born before 1911?
MALLON, John married either DUDLEY, Mary or MURPHY, Sarah
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1901; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 146

There are no daft questions, but yesthe mothers maiden name Mary Ward is on all their respective birth and death cert's

And to add to the 'confusion', John may have thought he was born in Liverpool, but that may be because it was the first place he remembered. He could have been born elsewhere and brought to Liverpool as a very young child.

Yes , that is a possibility.
From another post of mine where i have found a baptism details of a John Dobbs, born 1882 and bapt 1882 with a father of george and a mother of Elizabeth Dobbs formerly Mallum(Mallon). Being as this (half) certificate was found it must have some bearing on our family. [possibly his much older sister), so will be looking for a marriage cert for Elizabeth which might again give details of her fathers name .

once again thanks to all.

All Souls, Collingwood Street.

http://roundcounter.blogspot.ie/2010/06 ... treet.html

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/LAN/Li ... ouls.shtml

The Liverpool Record Office apparently hold the records of this church from 1873-1941. Would be worth getting a new copy of that 1882 baptism you have found.
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/calmvie ... +ALS&pos=1

Searched England for a George Dobbs and Elizabeth Mallon [+ variations] from 1860 to 1900. No hits. Raises another possibility... that these parents were not in fact married but Elizabeth married later but not to George Dobbs. Or she may not have married so John kept his Mallon surname and his father was indeed a George.

Hi DS,

the baptism is on Anc,


Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Joannis Dobbs

Name:
Joannis Dobbs

Birth Date:
8 Nov 1882
Baptism Date:
9 Nov 1882
Parish:
All Souls'
Father's Name:
Georgie Dobbs
Mother's Name:
Elizabetha Mallum


is this the missing George?
Can't find a marriage between this couple, 1860/1890, England/ Wales.
So did John take on his mothers name in later life as DS hinted at earlier.

Birth Date: 8 Nov 1882; Baptism Date: 9 Nov 1882

Baptised in a bit of a hurry? Unless the child was near death. Wondering if both parents were in attendance? The plot thickens...

Bertieone wrote:Hi DS,

the baptism is on Anc,


Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1802-1906
about Joannis Dobbs

Name:
Joannis Dobbs

Birth Date:
8 Nov 1882
Baptism Date:
9 Nov 1882
Parish:
All Souls'
Father's Name:
Georgie Dobbs
Mother's Name:
Elizabetha Mallum


is this the missing George?
Can't find a marriage between this couple, 1860/1890, England/ Wales.
So did John take on his mothers name in later life as DS hinted at earlier.

Trouble is that Catholics were pretty strict on that. Not too sure if the child would have been allowed to be baptised without them being married.