Family with no given names and common surname - Gray

[jpb0205]

Hello

This is my first post here and am already struggling how to explain my problem. I have been trying to research my maternal family but am hampered by the fact that all of the family used different names to their given name and they have a common surname, Gray.

My grandmother was Louisa Gray born Liverpool 1899, she was commonly known as Cissy.
Her mother and father were Louisa (b 1870, St Helens) and John Gray (b 1862, London)

From 1911 census I have the family as above, plus George (b 1895), William (b 1897), Mary (b 1901), Alfred (b 1904), Florrie (b 1906), Albert (b 1908) and Henry (b 1910). There also seems to be one deceased child and one not mentioned in the above list so had maybe left home.

From family history, we had a "Jack" and a "Harry" who both fought in WWI, one returned and one was lost. I think this could be George and William but I don't know regiments so can't trace them that way. I remember a great aunty "May" so she could be Mary but I also had a great aunt "Poppy", who may be Florrie.

I can't get any further as I cannot find a marriage record between John and Louisa Gray but the census indicates this should have been around 1891. I can't go further back in time as great grandfather John was supposedly from a well to do family and great grandmother Louisa was their maid. The story goes that he was cut off without a penny for running off with the maid and my grandmother always searched the unclaimed fortunes section of the Sunday papers to see if the family ever relented! I can't find any London Grays who moved to Liverpool and fit that profile. The only other thing I can remember is that the family lived in Newsham Park, possibly in Judge's Drive.

Am having better luck with my dad's side of the family who were Irish light house keepers but they stuck to their names so make life easier.

I really want to find my great uncle "Harry's" war grave plus am now a bit obsessed with the whole story so would really appreciate any help.

Thanks for any help or advice
jpb

[Alison C]

Hello,

FamilySearch has the following baptisms for children of John and Louisa Gray - all at St Peters, Liverpool:

George Andrew baptised 26 September 1894
John baptised 22 November 1891
Louisa baptised 20 February 1899
William Henry baptised 7 January 1897

"Jack" was probably John, and "Harry" probably William Henry.

Alison

[Alison C]

Hi again,

FreeBMD has a marriage for John Gray and Louisa Townsend in Q1 1891, West Derby, vol 8b p538.

Alison

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum. The baptisms in the list that Alison gave are also on Ancestry, if you wanted to see the original images.

Harry is also a common nickname for Henry.

The marriage she gives took place in Everton, St Chrysostoms on 14 January, 1891
John Gray, 29 Bachelor Laborer 40 Laith Street
Father John Gray Deceased, Yard Man
Louisa Townsend 27 Spinster 13 Oxford Street
Father Jeremiah Townsend, Fitter
Witnesses Philip David Hagan and Adelaide Gray
Everybody appears to have signed their names

[dickiesam]

The Gray family in 1891...

RG12 Piece: 2949 Folio: 48 Page: 43
Address: 14 Sykes Street, Everton, Liverpool.
GRAY, John Head 29 1862 Dock Labourer Hackney, London
GRAY, Louisa Wife 20 1871 St Helens, Lancashire
GRAY, Mary Mother Widow 60 1831 Wrexham, Denbighshire
GRAY, Mary Sister U/m 18 1873 Tailoress Liverpool, Lancashire

[dickiesam]

John Gray is very precise with his YoB in 1891, 1901 and 1911. In all three he gives London but in 1891 he adds Hackney. There's only one birth that matches those parameters...

Birth: GRAY, John
Registration district: Hackney, London
Year of registration: 1862; Mar qtr
Volume no: 1B; Page no: 359

Is this his death?
GRAY, John
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1930; Sep qtr
Age at death: 68
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 61

in 1871 there's only one hit for John Gray, bn London 1862, and he isn't at home.
RG10 Piece: 184 Folio: 46 Page: 50
Address: New Street, Marylebone, London, Middlesex
THOMPSON, Mary Lodger 28 1843 Gloucestershire
NICKOLS, Elizabeth Lodger 24 1847 Gloucestershire
SARGENT, Ann Lodger 31 1840 Oxfordshire
WATSON, Catherine Lodger 60 1811 London
GRAY, John Lodger 9 1862 London

Since we have his mother's name you could get the 1862 birth cert from the GRO but specify the mother's name must be Mary.

And this could be his sister Mary, apparently born Liverpool according to the 1891:
Birth: GRAY, Mary
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1873; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 31

[jpb0205]

Hello,

FamilySearch has the following baptisms for children of John and Louisa Gray - all at St Peters, Liverpool:

George Andrew baptised 26 September 1894
John baptised 22 November 1891
Louisa baptised 20 February 1899
William Henry baptised 7 January 1897

"Jack" was probably John, and "Harry" probably William Henry.

Alison

Thank you so much Alison.

John = Jack and William Henry = Harry sounds right.

Tomorrow I will start searching for war records for both and a war grave for "Harry". Must find Family search website and add that to my new favourites.

[jpb0205]

Hi and welcome to the forum. The baptisms in the list that Alison gave are also on Ancestry, if you wanted to see the original images.

Harry is also a common nickname for Henry.

The marriage she gives took place in Everton, St Chrysostoms on 14 January, 1891
John Gray, 29 Bachelor Laborer 40 Laith Street
Father John Gray Deceased, Yard Man
Louisa Townsend 27 Spinster 13 Oxford Street
Father Jeremiah Townsend, Fitter
Witnesses Philip David Hagan and Adelaide Gray
Everybody appears to have signed their names

Thank you very much Mary.

This sounds good except for Louisa's age, she was definitely 8 years younger than my great grandfather, so if he was 29, she should have been 21.

Are ages often incorrect in records?

[jpb0205]

The Gray family in 1891...

RG12 Piece: 2949 Folio: 48 Page: 43
Address: 14 Sykes Street, Everton, Liverpool.
GRAY, John Head 29 1862 Dock Labourer Hackney, London
GRAY, Louisa Wife 20 1871 St Helens, Lancashire
GRAY, Mary Mother Widow 60 1831 Wrexham, Denbighshire
GRAY, Mary Sister U/m 18 1873 Tailoress Liverpool, Lancashire

Thanks very much dickiesam, this is really useful for my great grandmother's family.

Please can I ask what RG12 Piece: 3949 Folio: 48 Page: 43 means?

Sorry for my ignorance, I am still very new to this research.
jpb

[jpb0205]

John Gray is very precise with his YoB in 1891, 1901 and 1911. In all three he gives London but in 1891 he adds Hackney. There's only one birth that matches those parameters...

Birth: GRAY, John
Registration district: Hackney, London
Year of registration: 1862; Mar qtr
Volume no: 1B; Page no: 359

Is this his death?
GRAY, John
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1930; Sep qtr
Age at death: 68
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 61

in 1871 there's only one hit for John Gray, bn London 1862, and he isn't at home.
RG10 Piece: 184 Folio: 46 Page: 50
Address: New Street, Marylebone, London, Middlesex
THOMPSON, Mary Lodger 28 1843 Gloucestershire
NICKOLS, Elizabeth Lodger 24 1847 Gloucestershire
SARGENT, Ann Lodger 31 1840 Oxfordshire
WATSON, Catherine Lodger 60 1811 London
GRAY, John Lodger 9 1862 London

Since we have his mother's name you could get the 1862 birth cert from the GRO but specify the mother's name must be Mary.

And this could be his sister Mary, apparently born Liverpool according to the 1891:
Birth: GRAY, Mary
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1873; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 31

That death record is probably correct. My mother was born in 1925 and remembered my great grandmother (Granny Gray) well but only had vague recollections of my great grandfather. This would fit in with her being 5 when he died.

Am beginning to think that the wealthy family and disowning is a bit of a family/urban legend! I can't see anything so far that fits in with this theory but my grandmother was adamant this was true and believed it until the day she died.

Thank you again for your help
jpb

[dickiesam]

RE:

Thanks very much dickiesam, this is really useful for my great grandmother's family.

Please can I ask what RG12 Piece: 3949 Folio: 48 Page: 43 means?

Sorry for my ignorance, I am still very new to this research.
jpb

Those 'codes' represent where in the 1891 census the family are located as regards the actual Census Summary Page they are listed on. The RG #s started at 1861 [RG09] and continued thru to 1911 [RG14]. The two available earlier censuses, 1851 and 1841, are listed as HO107.

And as regards Urban Legends and family Lore [aka fairy stories], we all have them. There is usually a grain of truth in them that has become embellished for the telling. Perhaps to explain something iffy or unpleasant, and put a 'nice face' on an event.

[dickiesam]

There's a WW1 death that might be William but so far I haven't found it in the CWGC site.

Death: GRAY, William H
Unit: Lancashire Fusiliers
Rank: Private
Number: 50049
Year: 1918
Volume : I.14; Page: 175
Record source: GRO War Death Army Other Ranks (1914 to 1921)

Because this death is in the GRO Death Index you should be able to purchase the death cert from the GRO.

[alcavtay]

Would this be John's family? Sister Adelaide matches with the wedding witness for John and Louisa

1871 49 Every St, West Derby
RG10 Piece: 3840 Folio: 69 Page: 17
John Gray 42 Gardener born Wem, Salop (Shropshire)
Mary Gray 38 born Newtown, Wales
Henry Gray 12 born London
John Gray 9 born London
Adelaide Gray 4 born Liverpool

Going back another generation
Piece: 2192 Folio: 905 Page Number: 16

1851 Mill Lane, West Derby
John Gray 48 Nurseryman born Northumberland, Ford
Sarah Gray 48 born Wem, Shropshire
John Gray 21 born Wem, Shropshire
Mary J 17 born Wem, Shropshire
George W 14 born North Wales, St Asaph
Sarah E 10 born Liverpool

This generation wouldn't seem to be a wealthy family, John b1803 died 12/9/1873 and left less than £300 (probate)

[alcavtay]

In fact, I'm afraid that John b1803 seems to have declared bankruptcy on his business as nurseryman and seedsman. It's in the London Gazette http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/20936/pages/158

I had a similar 'fairy story' in my family and it turned out that the disowning was true but not the money unfortunately! Maybe being cut off from a fortune was more romantic than just being disowned... or maybe the story is true but we haven't found the money yet!

[Katie]

SDGW has this soldier so not the correct soldier


Name: William Harold Gray
Birth Place: York
Death Date: 23 Apr 1918
Death Location: France & Flanders
Enlistment Location: Sunderland, Durham
Rank: Private
Regiment: Lancashire Fusiliers
Battalion: 2nd Battalion
Number: 50049
Type of Casualty: Killed in action
Theatre of War: Western European Theatre

[Katie]

I have this soldier in my Soldiers Killed database no additional information

Machine Gun Corps
Gray
5449
John
Private
Liverpool
9th June 1917
Killed

The above was born in Birkenhead so rule him out

[MaryA]

Wow excellent, I woke up to find you have just about tied most things up.

Alcavtay's find does seem to tie in with the witness for the marriage and in response to your query, yes our ancestors were often a bit creative with the truth, she might have thought eight years was quite a big difference and didn't like to admit it, or she may have been just under 21 and needing parental consent which she didn't bother to get, or may have known that for some reason she wouldn't have been granted.

[Bertieone]

Hi and welcome to the forum. The baptisms in the list that Alison gave are also on Ancestry, if you wanted to see the original images.

Harry is also a common nickname for Henry.

The marriage she gives took place in Everton, St Chrysostoms on 14 January, 1891
John Gray, 29 Bachelor Laborer 40 Laith Street
Father John Gray Deceased, Yard Man
Louisa Townsend 27 Spinster 13 Oxford Street
Father Jeremiah Townsend, Fitter
Witnesses Philip David Hagan and Adelaide Gray
Everybody appears to have signed their names

Thank you very much Mary.

This sounds good except for Louisa's age, she was definitely 8 years younger than my great grandfather, so if he was 29, she should have been 21.

Are ages often incorrect in records?

I think that is a 1, the 2 runs into the 1 which gives the appearance of being 27.
Bloody handwriting again

[jpb0205]

I am overwhelmed by the friendliness and the help that has been offered to me.

A HUGE thank you to everyone who has contributed. This really was a shot in the dark but I now have tons of information to add to my family tree today!

Am still puzzled about "Harry" and WWI death. My gran and I used to go to St John's garden and add a poppy stick in the garden of remembrance for him each year. She always wanted to go and find his grave but I am the only one who can do it now and am determined I will. I have so much more information to work on, thanks to you all and will report back what I manage to find.

Thank you all
jpb

[jpb0205]

William Henry Grey is definitely not "Harry".

I have just found his wedding in June 1919. Back to the drawing board!