Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

My first time on the Forum, so here goes.
I have been searching for the death records for my 2xgrt. Grandparents James Jasper and Catherine McDougall for a number of years without any success. I have looked on Freebmd-Microfiche, Ancestry,Lancashire Bmd, and tried variant spellings.

They married in Liverpool 1854. According to the marriage certificate James would have been born in 1817 he was 33yrs, but on the 1861 census he was born in 1821 in Plymouth.A merchant seaman till about 1857 then a railway porter/labourer -information off the childrens baptisms.

I think he died between 1864 when his last child was born, and 1871 when Catherine is in the Brownlow Hill Workhouse in the Medical ward from 7th-23rd June, as the widow of James a porter (she had my grt. grandfather George with her 7yrs old- he was in the school). Her address was 46 Tichefield St, but she wasn't there on the 71 census. Also Catherine is in the street directories 1865-68 as a provision dealer 23 court Hornby street which made me think she was on her own.

I have Catherines baptism in Hollyhead 1827 from family search, and a copy of the original.The last record I have for her is in the workhouse 1871.I have looked for a second marriage,but haven't found any. The only relevant death cert. I have for her after 1871 was 1888, and I couldn't relate to anything in it.

I have one relevant death cert. for James for1865 for James McDowell (varient spelling) - wrong age and occupation. The rest are 1879,1885,1908 all sent for before I had more information

Hope this makes sense. I've tried to keep it as brief as possible.I feel I have missed something simple, and would be glad if anyone has other ideas.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Just so that we can see the entry for ourselves, can you please give the full details from the 1861 census that you have them on, including the reference. Were all the children born in Liverpool?

Hello VenaJ and welcome,

For the crew, this is the 1861 census referred to:
RG09 Piece: 2677 Folio: 105 Page: 55
Address: 8 House, 9 Court, Kitchen Street, Liverpool.
MCDOUGAL, James Head 44 1817 Mariner Plymouth, Devon
MCDOUGAL, Catherine Wife 32 1829 Wales
MCDOUGAL, Elizabeth Dtr 6 1855 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire
MCDOUGAL, Thomas Son 4 1857 Scholar Liverpool, Lancashire

Because the census has James as a mariner perhaps he had gone back to sea? There's an overseas death that could be him if he died ashore.

MCDOUGALL, James
Registering Consulate : Alexandria; Country: Egypt
Year: 1866-1870
Volume: 4; Page: 324
Age at death:
Record source: GRO Consular Death Indices (1849 to 1965)

Because the death is in the GRO Indexes you should be able to order a 'Overseas Event' death cert. If you do that make sure you enter only a year and not the Volume and Page references. The GRO will, in that instance, search one year either side of a given year. Since the record is between 1866 and 1870, I suggest 1867 and enter Mariner as occupation without an 'age at death'. If the GRO can't find a match they will refund the £9.25 fee in full.

1861 census Kitchen St no 9 court house 8
James McDougal 44 mariner born Plymouth Devon
Catherine wife 32 born Wales
Elizabeth 6 and Thomas 4
both children born in Liverpool

Puzzled by

1871 when Catherine is in the Brownlow Hill Workhouse in the Medical ward from 7th-23rd June

The 1871 census was taken on the night of 2 April 1871. Can you post the census page references for Catherine in that census. It will begin with RG10 plus Piece, Folio and Page numbers.

Can you also give the details from the death certificate that you have for Catherine in 1888 as we could try to discount her from being yours, especially if we were able to find a burial (none discovered on Ancestry).

Hi thanks for your replies.I will try to answer them in order.
Yes, all the children were born in Liverpool. The census you have found is the right one. they had two more children after that Lavinia (my namesake) b. 1862 d. 1863 buried in Walton park parochial cemetary, and George my grt. grandfather b.1864.

Catherines death certificate.
Died- 4th December 1888 311 Hawthorne rd Bootle.
Name- and surname Catherine McDougall.
**********-female
Age-66
Occupation-Widow of Dougall Stuart McDougall-Carpenter
Cause of death-Cerebral Haemorrhage.
Informant-The mark of Rachel Howell present at death, 53 Brookhill rd Bootle.
Registered 5th December 1888.
Registrar Calvin Smith?

I couldn't find the family on the 1871 census, so looked at the Workhouse records, and found Catherine with George in 1871 (I think the other two children would have been working). I looked for her address Tichfield st.- given in the workhouse- in the street census books in the library for 1871, just to see if any of the family were there, perhaps as borders, but it was a different family.

I did consider whether James might have gone back to sea, but Catherine states she was the widow of James a porter, and would he have gone back in his forties? I am keeping an open mind and would certainly apply for the certificate you mentioned, just to cross it off the list.

I have a birth certificate of my grt.- Grandfather George McDougall b.1864 (yougest son of James) which he applied for in 1924 and on the back it has a form relating to National Health Insurance Act for unemployment.He had to fill it out with his details, but also his parents names .There is a part which states Fathers occupation, and George has put -Railway work before death. He might have just got the information from his own birth certificate which states his father as being a railway porter.

The eldest son Thomas b.1857 ends up in Golbourne as a coal miner, and on his marriage certificate he states that his father James McDougall is a collier!
Hope this helps.

Re:

I have Catherine's baptism in Holyhead 1827

The 1888 death you referred to gives her age as 68 which gives a birth year of 1820. It's not unusual for an age at death to be out by a couple of years but 7 could be stretching it a bit. Is there confirmation on the cert that she is the right person?

Death: MCDOUGALL, Catherine
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1888; Dec qtr
Age at death: 68
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 360

Then re:

Catherines death certificate.
Died- 4th December 1888 311 Hawthorne rd Bootle.
Name- and surname Catherine McDougall.
**********-female
Age-66
Occupation-Widow of Dougall Stuart McDougall - Carpenter

But she married James McDougall, mariner?
KITE, Catherine married McDOUGALL, James
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1854; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 387

No DS, that's not the one, it's just that I asked for the details in order to rule her out and check the family she belonged to.

PS That would appear to be the marriage, Vena has her tree online and has Catherine Kite attached as wife.

Hi VenaJ,
I think you may have the wrong death cert.

See 1881 census:
RG11 Piece: 3577 Folio: 98 Page: 31
Address: 2 Plinmouth Place, Birkenhead, Cheshire
MC NAIR, Charles Head 34 1847 Ship Carpenter Scotland
MC NAIR, Margaret Wife 33 1848 Scotland
plus 4 children all bn Birkenhead and:
MC DUGALL, Dugald S Father-in-law 60 1821 Ship's Joiner Scotland
MC DUGALL, Catherine Mother-in-law 60 1821 Scotland

And you did what I was going to do, well that's definitely ruled out that cert, good on yer.

MaryA wrote:And you did what I was going to do, well that's definitely ruled out that cert, good on yer.

Great minds and all that.....

Most of the burials in Walton Cemetery are online so I suspect she wasn't buried there, what happened to the children in 1881?

1881 census for George McDougall

Head George Shepherd 27yrs b. Liverpool General labourer
Wife Marietta Shepherd 23 yrs b. Liverpool
Brother Peter Shepherd 19yrs b. Liverpool General labourer
Boarder George McDougall 17yrs b. Liverpool General labourer
Family history library folio 3658/17 page 30
Also on ancestry

He was Married in 1884 to Jane Fearon.
Father James McDougall-Labourer.

Census for Thomas McDougall
Head Thomas McDougall 26yrs b. Liverpool Coal miner
Ann McDougall 23yrs cotton winder b. Golborne
George McDougall 1yr b. Golborne
Family search folio 3801/5 page 4
Also on Ancestry
Also have them on the 1901 and 1911

He was married in 1879 in the Parish Church Golborne St Thomas's. Father James McDougall-Collier

Haven't been able to find much for Elizabeth Ann McDougall. On the 1901 census an Elizabeth McDougall as a servant b. 1858. My Elizabeth was born 1855 which could be ok, but for some reason I have written Not Mine on the page, so will have to check that out again. Also a death cert.for 1864 the father is Duncan McDougall - Hairdresser definately not mine.

Do you think the burial records are an option?

dickiesam wrote: The 1888 death you referred to gives her age as 68 which gives a birth year of 1820. It's not unusual for an age at death to be out by a couple of years but 7 could be stretching it a bit. Is there confirmation on the cert that she is the right person?

Ive got one who the age of death was out by 10 years. (My Gt Grandfather) Birth 02 May 1865 Death 23 Jan 1922. Ive got both certs & they are the right person. In St Helens Deceased site it originally had him as being age 0 months but I managed to get it changed. but they still have it as age 47 as per the BMD records & Death Cert
Name: HARRISON, William
Registration district: [?] Prescot
County: Lancashire
Year of registration: 1922
Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Age at death:47
Volume no: 8B
Page no: 1162

The difficulty with burial records is finding where they might be buried, which was my reason for asking about the 1881 censuses, every avenue is worth checking. Ruling out two avenues, I have found no entries on Ancestry nor Gibsons.

You have obviously checked the Infirmary (Workhouse) records and know that she didn't die there, did it say where she would be going and who to on discharge? There is always the possibility that he just left and she claimed to be a widow rather than deserted.

Yes, I think it's going to be a long job going through the burials. I think they were starting to go to Anfield in 1860's as the cemetries were getting full up, but it's still a guess. I might look a bit further in the workhouse in case Catherine came in again.It didn't say where she was going after discharge.
It's always a possibility that James just left.It's strange not being able to find either of them.

Interesting about the death certificate, it just shows you have to consider everthing.I will check freebmd again just to see if anything pops out. I thought I had found one for James McDougall and sent for it. It turned out to be a Janet. I reported it, sent it back, and got my money refunded.

VenaJ wrote:I thought I had found one for James McDougall and sent for it. It turned out to be a Janet. I reported it, sent it back, and got my money refunded.

Good! It's bad enough having to fork out for wrong ones, can't afford their mistakes too.

VenaJ wrote:I did consider whether James might have gone back to sea, but Catherine states she was the widow of James a porter, and would he have gone back in his forties? I am keeping an open mind and would certainly apply for the certificate you mentioned, just to cross it off the list.

I have found records of my relatives still at sea in their late 60s, so I wouldn't rule it out on the grounds of age.

Amanda

Thanks Amanda I'm still keeping an open mind on that. It's just that I have two other merchant mariners in the 1850's, and they gave up the sea in their late 30's - I assume they where not physically able anymore, as it must have been a tough job. I have thought about trying to trace his merchant records, but I think you have to know what ships they sailed on.

Vena