Ellison/Roberts - A family mystery ?

[VicMar1]

ROBERTS,2 Town View ? Can anyone offer any suggestions please ?
I raised a post re; Town View a few weeks ago and with your help ascertained I certainly had the right address(es).
My Mothers Birth Cert; (1912) and the 1911 Census return verified I had the right people, but with a strange twist !!.
Bertieone identified the enumerators report quite correctly as : Town View, DS, RG14; Piece: 22530.
The mystery is that the Head of household declared himself to be a 'David' Roberts and his 'Wife' of 7 years was Ann ?.
A stepson called William Ellison and 'Annie' and 'George' Roberts were also resident at that time. The address and Adult occupants can directly cross reference to the info contained in my Mothers BC, with one notable exception - 'David' is really named Horatio Cogill Roberts, B-1878 in Devonport,Stoke Damarel,Devon.
Ann declares her birthplace as Manchester but family legend says she was Irish (her "former" name was Ellison ).
Apart from Horatio I can find no trace whatsoever of any of them whether post or pre-1911?
The family story has it that William (Ellison) went off to fight in WW1 and was gassed at Passchaendale (no trace) His Mother,Ann (sr) fell ill and died (my guess is about 1917/18) and left Horatio with the 3 children (Annie-13 yrs, George-8 yrs and Valentine-7 yrs) All Roberts' .
He managed to find someone or somewhere to take in the children and then re-married to F.G.F Singleton in 1921, eventually dying in Maghull during 1946.
My Mother never saw any of them again and I would venture that they all never saw each other again. All I can remember is that Mother used to say that she was raised as a catholic by Nuns 'over the water' ? (Heswall ?) and when she was old enough was put into service and even later began working as a nurse auxiliary of sorts at the new Mill Rd hospital after the re-build.
I learn that what we now call 'adoptions' were not a formal requirement before 1926 and it is highly unlikely that I would be able to search through any records there might be on the off chance of finding her ?
I also can not find any trace of Ann Sr. (Ellison). My quandary is this - Would "(Formerly Ellison)" on the birth certificate indicate she was married previously ? As opposed to "nee Ellison" universally accepted as the 'maiden' surname ? It makes sense as there is a 16 yr old boy(man?) named William on the census 1911?
Again,family legend has it that GranMa (Ann sr) was born in Ireland overlooking the Mountains of Mourne ?? Not such a good view from Manchester I think ?
Can find no trace of a marriage between the two and no death recorded for her either.
My gut feeling is that they were so poor that it is more likely she was buried a 'pauper' in a common grave but as they likewise are not always documented I wonder if and where I should make a start. The Nugent Society has no record of them.
Another anomaly is their religion, with a name like William and a surname of Ellison there is definitely Irish in there,but from the North ! I think that they are C of E at very least (or were C of I) Horatio was not from a religious background and was more than likely C of E ?
Has anyone had a mystery like this and can offer advice please ?

The LRO is opened again today and I need some guidance to make best use of its services in the future, any relevant scrap of advice will be more than welcome.

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Big post but here's one answer for you...
Re:

My quandary is this - Would "(Formerly Ellison)" on the birth certificate indicate she was married previously ? As opposed to "nee Ellison" universally accepted as the 'maiden' surname ? It makes sense as there is a 16 yr old boy(man?) named William on the census 1911?

The word 'formerly' on a birth certificate indicates the mother was married at the time of the birth and 'formerly' indicates her maiden name.

I have a couple of birth certs which have wording in the Mother's Name column similar to:
"Harriet Murphy, late Dunne, formerly McCardle". That means that Harriet was in her second marriage when the child was born. As Harriet McCardle she had married a Dunne. She later married a Murphy. The marriage cert shows she was a widow at that marriage.

However, she might have lied about being a widow and your Ann 'formerly Ellison' may have lied about being married when she registered the birth. No proof of marriage was required.

[VicMar1]

Many Thanks DS, That at least makes one suspicion a bit clearer.
So many possibilities with this one.
Would you say then, that likely William was born out of wedlock and they were using her maiden name of Ellison ? It narrows the search criteria somewhat.
As mentioned,I never have found any co-relating documents to support any marriage at all to Ann, I thought she may have come from Ireland to Manchester, married,had William and either was widowed or divorced,perhaps had other children? Somehow came to Liverpool and as she was 10 yrs older than Horatio ? In modern parlance "Took herself a toy boy"
Would you agree with my logic of the Irish connection ? The names scream out Orange Protestant dont they ??

Hi,
Big post but here's one answer for you...
Re:

My quandary is this - Would "(Formerly Ellison)" on the birth certificate indicate she was married previously ? As opposed to "nee Ellison" universally accepted as the 'maiden' surname ? It makes sense as there is a 16 yr old boy(man?) named William on the census 1911?

The word 'formerly' on a birth certificate indicates the mother was married at the time of the birth and 'formerly' indicates her maiden name.

I have a couple of birth certs which have wording in the Mother's Name column similar to:
"Harriet Murphy, late Dunne, formerly McCardle". That means that Harriet was in her second marriage when the child was born. As Harriet McCardle she had married a Dunne. She later married a Murphy. The marriage cert shows she was a widow at that marriage.

However, she might have lied about being a widow and your Ann 'formerly Ellison' may have lied about being married when she registered the birth. No proof of marriage was required.

[dickiesam]

Hi,
As you say lots of possibilities... but there is one thing for certain I think.
Re:

All I can remember is that Mother used to say that she was raised as a catholic by Nuns 'over the water' ?

For your mother to be taken in and raised by nuns as a Roman Catholic she would have to have been baptised as a Catholic. That raises the possibility that her parents were not married because of religious differences or one was married and could not divorce. One of them was RC but the other kicked with the opposite foot.

Does the name Horatio Cogill Roberts appear as such, in full, on your mother's birth cert? Or just Horatio Roberts? And it appears that the 1921 marriage to Florence Singleton was his first and only marriage.

Birth: ROBERTS, Horatio Cogill
Registration district: Stoke Damerel, Devonshire
Year of registration: 1878; Mar qtr
Volume no: 5B; Page no: 341

In 1881 he is at home with his parents but in 1891 he is here..
RG12 - Piece: 1708 - Folio: 89 - Page: 51
Address: British Seamen's Orphan Boys Home, Berry Road, Brixham, Devonshire
ROBERTS, Horatio - Orphan - 13 - 1878 - Orphan Inmate Of Orphan Home, Devonport, Devonshire.

In the later censuses I would say he is at sea in the MN.

[Hilary]

I am a little confused.

Please could you post the full 1911 census entry and all the infromation contained on your mother's birt.h certificate.

Thanks

[VicMar1]

I am a little confused.

Please could you post the full 1911 census entry and all the infromation contained on your mother's birt.h certificate.

Thanks

I'm totally mystified !!

I will do better and post links to my on-line copies of the documents you ask for:-
The 1911 census return [RG14 Piece 22530]
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... 089695.jpg

Val's Birth Cert
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... a3f40f.jpg

Horatios Marriage in 1921
http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii18 ... fd0e84.jpg


Hope they work ?

[dickiesam]

I have yet to make sense of the information so far in evidence, but I am beginning to think that David Roberts and Horatio Cogill Roberts are not the same person.

I think you should look for a baptism of William Ellison bn abt 1895, mother Annie.

[VicMar1]

I have yet to make sense of the information so far in evidence, but I am beginning to think that David Roberts and Horatio Cogill Roberts are not the same person.

I think you should look for a baptism of William Ellison bn abt 1895, mother Annie.

Thanks again DS, Quite a lot of possibilities there but will just have to start at their nearest church and work outwards to see what I can discover re:Baptisms ? Might get a clearer picture of communal burials on the way.
As for David/Horatio, I can assure you they are one and the same. I was taken to see NaNa Singleton in about 1958 (I was aged 6 or7). I expect that my Mother had discovered news of his death and had sought the family home,she had been there before with my siblings.
Ann (Ellison) was definitely my GrandMother as on birth cert and, as 2 in 3 crt and 2 Town View are the same dwelling a year apart ?
Another pointer is the "Town View" in 1911 Census and same on Horatios wedding Licence in 1921 ? I'm pretty certain that I am on the right path with GD,its primarily the Ellison element I am wanting to know more of..

[dickiesam]

Sorry to be a doubting Thomas, but there is no evidence so far that could not be coincidental or otherwise to prove that David Roberts is in fact Horatio Cogill Roberts.

It puzzles me as to why David should suddenly switch to Horatio on the birth of Valentine in 1912, less than 12 months after the census. David Roberts states he was bn abt 1878 in Penzance, Cornwall and Horatio Cogill Roberts was bn 1878 in Stoke Damerel, Devonshire. I doubt if a Devon man would say he was from Penzance in Cornwall. What would be the point?

To investigate further you need to find the birth certs for Annie bn abt 1905 and George bn abt 1909. The given year for the parents' non-marriage is conveniently 1904 which would make Annie legitimate in the eyes of 'authority'. Quite a common thing to do. Because there were several possible births you can ask the GRO to search 1 year either side of a given year if you only enter the parents' names. In this case David Roberts and Annie [no maiden name]. Just enter the year. Don't include any place, volume or page numbers. If the GRO can't find a match they will refund the fee in full.

Regarding a baptism for William Ellison, you could find it online in the Ancestry collection of Liverpool baptisms. Ann Roberts [formerly Ellison] may have been economical with the truth regarding her status. I am coming to believe she was already married to an Ellison who fathered William and she either left her husband or was deserted by him. Possibly when she was pregnant with Annie?

[MaryA]

Regarding a baptism for William Ellison, you could find it online in the Ancestry collection of Liverpool baptisms. Ann Roberts [formerly Ellison] may have been economical with the truth regarding her status. I am coming to believe she was already married to an Ellison who fathered William and she either left her husband or was deserted by him. Possibly when she was pregnant with Annie?

There is a possible entry
2nd July/17th July 1895 at St Cleopas, Toxteth
William Southworth Ellison son of Thomas Matthew and Annie of 60 Cleopas Street
Occupation Upholsterer

[Bertieone]

Had the same thoughts Mary,

They appear to have married in 1877, Salford, 8d 56,
if it is the correct marriage, the age of Annie, 1911 census wouldn't fit.
Thomas Mathew died in 1900.

Thomas Mathew Ellison, Annie Southworth.

[dickiesam]

Had the same thoughts Mary,

They appeared to have married in 1877, Salford, 8d 56,
if it is the correct marriage, the age of Annie, 1911 census wouldn't fit.
Thomas Mathew died in 1900.

Thomas Mathew Ellison, Annie Southworth.

Hi Bert and MaryA...
Just a thought... see if you can find a baptism for a 'Letitia' [or any other] Ellison bn abt 1897. If same parents we may have a match in the 1901.

RG13 - Piece: 3434 - Folio: 119 - Page: 2
Address: House 11 in 1 Court, Park Road, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
ELLISON, Annie Head Married 33 1868 Charwoman Liverpool
ELLISON, William Son 8 1893 Scholar Liverpool
ELLISON, Letitia Dtr 4 1897 Liverpool

[VicMar1]

Had the same thoughts Mary,

They appeared to have married in 1877, Salford, 8d 56,
if it is the correct marriage, the age of Annie, 1911 census wouldn't fit.
Thomas Mathew died in 1900.

Thomas Mathew Ellison, Annie Southworth.

Hi Bert and MaryA...
Just a thought... see if you can find a baptism for a 'Letitia' [or any other] Ellison bn abt 1897. If same parents we may have a match in the 1901.

RG13 - Piece: 3434 - Folio: 119 - Page: 2
Address: House 11 in 1 Court, Park Road, Toxteth Park, Lancashire
ELLISON, Annie Head Married 33 1868 Charwoman Liverpool
ELLISON, William Son 8 1893 Scholar Liverpool
ELLISON, Letitia Dtr 4 1897 Liverpool

I also have been looking into this possibility and discovered that Ellenn Letitia Ellison was 14 at the time of the 1911 census and was a patient in Stanley Hospital Kirkdale.
Possibly even married into a family of Browns later ? Cant prove the links conclusively though ? Might be considered as reason for why she wasn't at 2 Town View that night ?
If DS were right about the marriage in Salford then Ann would have been only 10.
The ages of both 'Ann's in Toxteth Park and Town View match as 10 yrs apart and the presence of a William as son attracted me to it, although there is a discrepancy with his age admittedly. Notice also that all the children in both instances are born in Liverpool not Manchester. I can only connect Ann to Manchester from the declaration on the 1911 census, and as I am pretty certain that Horatio was being economical with the truth........? Notice also that on RG13/3434 that 'someone' has already questioned the ? BirthPlace ? of "Annie" as being " -do- " of the declaration above ??
Deja Vu of the Devon/Cornwall instance of 'David' ?

[sharon O'Neill]

Helena Letitia Ellison baptised Jan 1897 St Patrick's mother Martha A Ellison nee Reilly and father Robert Ellison.

[dickiesam]

Possible marriage....

ELLISON, Robert Elgin may have married RILEY, Martha Ann
Registration district: Manchester
Year of registration: 1892; Mar qtr
Volume no: 8D; Page no: 194

[Bertieone]

Name:
Robert Elgin Ellison, Seaman
Birth Year:
abt 1864
Age:
28
Marriage Date:
25 Jan 1892
Parish:
Ancoats, All Souls
Parish as it Appears:
Manchester, All Souls
Father's Name:
James Ellison, Boatman
Spouse's Name:
Martha Ann Riley, Laundress
Spouse's Father's Name:
William Riley, ???

[MaryA]

The only other one turning up for exactly the same parents is Mary Gertrude Ellison 31 December 1893/28 February 1894, same church, however I believe John Ellison, same church 12 December 1887/11 January, 1888 to Thomas and Annie would be the same family.

[VicMar1]

Actually,the 1911 census is somewhat illegible in parts and one transcriber has it as "Davio". I have toyed with the idea that maybe it was misheard from "Horatio"?
Also that as it was Ann herself that signed the document,if it were she who declared the information to the enumerator at the door she might well have given Cornwall as the answer for Horatios birthplace under the attitude that its all the same difference to her anyway ?
All thoughts that give me the feeling that maybe she was from Northern Ireland after all and was often misheard as a consequence of her accent ?
I have even found a likely candidate in Ardglass, Co Down (which is across the bay and in sight of the Mountains of Mourne) Some things dont quite add up so it remains only that,a remote possibility and depends on her maiden name being Ellison.
I said this was a mystery,its had me going in circles for 3 years so far. I just have to believe I am following a spiral to the truth ?
It is said that you cant choose your family ?

[VicMar1]

"All I can remember is that Mother used to say that she was raised as a catholic by Nuns 'over the water' ?"

Thinking back over this statement and its implications,it is unclear from the memories of other members of my family whether the 'Nuns' were indeed R/C ?
I think that I remember there were C of E nuns that used to work in our community during the 50's when I was a nipper ?
Possibly had very light grey Habits and wore quite large wimples ?
I also think they were attached to St Thomas' church in Seaforth in some way, and possibly had some connection to a house in Elm Rd near the public park?
My memory may be playing tricks but does anyone remember such people?
We were never raised on religious principles and each of my siblings has adopted their own since,my elder Sister adopted the R/C church in her 20's and is the only member of the family to add this into the mix, I am not so sure.

[MaryA]

I have never heard of nuns in any other religion other than RC.