Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi

I am trying to find a birth or marriage information on my relative, Isabella Dugan/Blair.

She was born on Oct 17, 1871 in Liverpool. Her father was Robert Dugan. She married Martin Blair in 1889

I found her death info in British Columbia Canada, but the birth mum is unknown. She was a child of Robert Dugan's first marriage. His first wife died. I have a copy of info off his second marriage, but am lost as to who was the first bride and mother of Isabella.

The 1901 and 1911 Ireland Census state she was born in Liverpool, contrary to the info on her death records.

I found a transcription for a birth in Liverpool for an Isabella Dugan, born Sept 17, 1861. Father Patrick, Mother, Sarah. I almost certain this one is not her.

I cannot seem to find any info on who her mother is.

Any ideas, suggestions on where to look next is greatly appreciated.

Thank you Geri

Hi Geri

Welcome to the forum. What was Robert's occupation? Do you know when he came to Liverpool? Do you have him on any Liverpool Census records? There's a Robert & Sarah Dugan with four sons on the 1861 Census at 3 Sand Street Liverpool. This Robert was a mariner. All this family were born in Ireland.

I'm wondering whether the father's name on that baptism of an Isabella Dugan on 2 Dec 1861 at St. Peter's C of E in Liverpool could be wrong. The mother there is also called Sarah. I can't find a Patrick & Sarah Dugan in Liverpool on the 1861 Census. The baptism family are living in Burlington Street which is not far from Sand Street.


Blue

Hi Geri

Did Isabella have a middle name of Baker. If so there are a couple of Family Trees on Anc., no marriage info, with a child Annie born on Belfast 1891.

Possibly suggests marriage in NI.

Juno

geri_hill wrote: Isabella Dugan/Blair.... was born on Oct 17, 1871 in Liverpool. Her father was Robert Dugan.

geri_hill wrote:
I found a transcription for a birth in Liverpool for an Isabella Dugan, born Sept 17, 1861. Father Patrick, Mother, Sarah. I almost certain this one is not her.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Can you clarify which year you believe Isabella was born as your original message is confusing.

There are only 5 Isabela/Isobel Dugan/Duggan births registered in England between 1860 and 1872, including those where Isobel is a second forename. Only one is in Lancashire...
Birth: DUGAN, Isabella
Registration district: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1861; Dec qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 28

Did she 'lose' ten years along the way to Canada?

There's only one marriage for a Robert Dugan/Duggan in Lancashire between 1850 and 1872 and only 3 in England.
Marriage: DUGGAN, Robert married either HANNON, Ellen or MCCONVILL, Catharine.
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1853; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 545

DS that marriage was on 22 June, 1853 to Ellen Hannon at St Peter's Priory (RC marriage)
Fathers Thomas Duggan and William Hannon, Residences Pickup Street and Argyle Street
Witnesses. Robert Robson and Rachel Thompson

Isabella's family appear to be Irish Protestants. They probably came over to Liverpool for a few years then returned to the north of Ireland. Here are the Irish Census records showing Isabella, her husband Martin who she married in Belfast in 1889 and their children living in County Down:-

1901

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 000708563/

1911

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 002174256/


Blue

Did you get the 1861 birth certificate? That registration is likely to be the same people as the baptism on 2 Dec 1861. The date of birth on that baptism and the death registration in Canada are both the 17th of a month. A co-incidence or maybe both refer to the same birth event? Was Robert mistakenly recorded as Patrick on the baptism? It can happen. Here is the death registration for other people to look at:-

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLT8-VKF


Blue

Some possible information relating to the Dugan family at Sand Street Liverpool on the 1861 Census. There's an 1851 baptism of a Robert Duggan at St. Anne's, Church of Ireland, Shankill, Belfast with the father being Robert and the mother being Sarah.

A possible match on the Griffith's Evaluation (Ask About Ireland date the information to 1860) of a Robert Dugan living at 4 McKiller's Court (McKellar's Court?), Shankill Parish, Dock Ward, Belfast. Landlord: William Rodgers.

A possible death index for the oldest son on the 1861 Census record:-

Name: Robert Dugan
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Date of Registration: 1866
Death Age: 15
Registration district: Belfast
Death Country: Ireland
Volume: 6
Page: 206
FHL Film Number: 101583


Blue

Blue70 wrote:Hi Geri

Welcome to the forum. What was Robert's occupation? Do you know when he came to Liverpool? Do you have him on any Liverpool Census records? There's a Robert & Sarah Dugan with four sons on the 1861 Census at 3 Sand Street Liverpool. This Robert was a mariner. All this family were born in Ireland.

I'm wondering whether the father's name on that baptism of an Isabella Dugan on 2 Dec 1861 at St. Peter's C of E in Liverpool could be wrong. The mother there is also called Sarah. I can't find a Patrick & Sarah Dugan in Liverpool on the 1861 Census. The baptism family are living in Burlington Street which is not far from Sand Street.


Blue

Thank you, I saw the census, but I am not sure if it is him or not. On my G-Grandfather's marriage in Belfast, he is stated as being a labourer.

juno wrote:Hi Geri

Did Isabella have a middle name of Baker. If so there are a couple of Family Trees on Anc., no marriage info, with a child Annie born on Belfast 1891.

Possibly suggests marriage in NI.

Juno

That is her daughter.

MaryA wrote:

geri_hill wrote: Isabella Dugan/Blair.... was born on Oct 17, 1871 in Liverpool. Her father was Robert Dugan.

geri_hill wrote:
I found a transcription for a birth in Liverpool for an Isabella Dugan, born Sept 17, 1861. Father Patrick, Mother, Sarah. I almost certain this one is not her.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Can you clarify which year you believe Isabella was born as your original message is confusing.

I am not surprised it is confusing, my wee head is cluttered. On her death certificate, her birth is stated as October 17, 1861. Thank you

dickiesam wrote:There are only 5 Isabela/Isobel Dugan/Duggan births registered in England between 1860 and 1872, including those where Isobel is a second forename. Only one is in Lancashire...
Birth: DUGAN, Isabella
Registration district: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1861; Dec qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 28

Did she 'lose' ten years along the way to Canada?

There's only one marriage for a Robert Dugan/Duggan in Lancashire between 1850 and 1872 and only 3 in England.
Marriage: DUGGAN, Robert married either HANNON, Ellen or MCCONVILL, Catharine.
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1853; Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 545

That is funny, she died at 100 years, perhaps it was 110? I have no clue, I am confused. The Irish Naming Patterns make it so easy to make a incorrect assumption, but in the same way, helps to narrow things down.

geri_hill wrote:

MaryA wrote:

geri_hill wrote: Isabella Dugan/Blair.... was born on Oct 17, 1871 in Liverpool. Her father was Robert Dugan.

geri_hill wrote: I am not surprised it is confusing, my wee head is cluttered. On her death certificate, her birth is stated as October 17, 1861. Thank you

That DoB matches the birth I posted previously...
There are only 5 Isabela/Isobel Dugan/Duggan births registered in England between 1860 and 1872, including those where Isobel is a second forename. Only one is in Lancashire...
Birth: DUGAN, Isabella
Registration district: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1861; Dec qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 28

Blue70 wrote:Isabella's family appear to be Irish Protestants. They probably came over to Liverpool for a few years then returned to the north of Ireland. Here are the Irish Census records showing Isabella, her husband Martin who she married in Belfast in 1889 and their children living in County Down:-

1901

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 000708563/

1911

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/r ... 002174256/


Blue

Thank you!

Blue70 wrote:Did you get the 1861 birth certificate? That registration is likely to be the same people as the baptism on 2 Dec 1861. The date of birth on that baptism and the death registration in Canada are both the 17th of a month. A co-incidence or maybe both refer to the same birth event? Was Robert mistakenly recorded as Patrick on the baptism? It can happen. Here is the death registration for other people to look at:-

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FLT8-VKF


Blue

No, I was hoping to narrow it down to make sure it was correct before ordering it. If I found evidence of Robert being a Mariner, I would agree that it was a mistake, but everything I have found on census and street directories have him listed as a labourer.

May I ask one further question? What is the difference between a Mariner, Seaman and Sailor. Thank you

That DoB matches the birth I posted previously...
There are only 5 Isabela/Isobel Dugan/Duggan births registered in England between 1860 and 1872, including those where Isobel is a second forename. Only one is in Lancashire...
Birth: DUGAN, Isabella
Registration district: Liverpool, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1861; Dec qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 28[/quote]

Thanks so much

May I ask one further question? What is the difference between a Mariner, Seaman and Sailor. Thank you

Basically they all mean virtually the same thing... a man who goes to sea for a living.

However, a mariner will usually have a higher rank than a seaman, perhaps a senior officer, and both are in the Merchant Navy. A master mariner has the professional qualification required for someone to serve as the person in charge or person in command of a commercial vessel. A 'sailor' is usually in the Royal Navy.

But at a census, it is often left to the householder to use his own description and the enumerator to interpret the description the way he thinks fit.

dickiesam wrote:

May I ask one further question? What is the difference between a Mariner, Seaman and Sailor. Thank you

Basically they all mean virtually the same thing... a man who goes to sea for a living.

However, a mariner will usually have a higher rank than a seaman, perhaps a senior officer, and both are in the Merchant Navy. A master mariner has the professional qualification required for someone to serve as the person in charge or person in command of a commercial vessel. A 'sailor' is usually in the Royal Navy.

But at a census, it is often left to the householder to use his own description and the enumerator to interpret the description the way he thinks fit.

Thank you, I have found all 3 on various family records. The two who listed sailor on their marriage details, were indeed in the Royal Navy. Very helpful

Thank you everyone. I think together we have done it! I just found marriage info on Ancestry Ireland for a Robert Dugan who married a Sarah Maguire in Ballymacarrett where my Dugan's are from. He is listed as a labourer.

I then found a second marriage to an Elizabeth Logan where he is listed as a Mariner not a labourer. It looks like the Patrick listed could be an error. Perhaps she did live to 110, who knows. It sure is fun trying to figure this all out. Thanks so very much