Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi Yall

I have been trying to discover my Wilde family for several years now and have hit several dead ends

My Gt Gt Gt Grandfather Robert Wilde b abt 1824 Liverpool, the son of Mersey Pilot John Wilde and his wife Jane Hughes.

On his marriage in 1842 and on the 1841 and 1851 census he was listed as a hairdresser - he had premises in Great Homer Street. The family were living at Lad Lane Liverpool in 1851 - this is where my great great grandfather James Wilde was born in 1855.

I cannot find the family at all in 1861 - consisting of Robert, his wife Ellen, Children - Charles (1843) Richard 1845, John 1851 and James 1855 (there could have been others).

By 1871 (April 2/3rd) all the children had left home and were spread out across Lancashire. Ellen was residing as a lodger in the household of her soon to be daughter in Law Sarah Ann Jackson in Liverpool - her son John (who married Sarah later that year) is also missing. Ellen is listed as married.

I have searched high and low for a death and for census details for Robert between 1851 and 1881 to no avail - I have checked the variants - Wild Wilds, Wilder, Wyld, Wylde etc

I searched the On-line newspapers on FMP today and came across several reports in country wide newspapers (published Friday 7th April 1871) of a Robert Wilde, a Liverpool Customs official who was bitten by a blood hound in February and seemed to be recovered, but he was taken ill on Tuesday and died in agony and horror on the Wednesday. I searched the death Index in Liverpool/West Derby and yet again found nothing Then I found another newspaper report (Lloyds weekly) that stated that he was visiting friends in Ireland on the Tuesday when he was taken ill.
this would probably explain why he wasn't indexed in England and Wales, but someone has searched the Irish BMD's and he isn't there either

I am wondering if anyone has some spare time at the library or records office who can browse the death notices, articles from the Liverpool Echo around 5-10th April 1871 - Just trying to find SOMETHING that can tie this chap in with my mysterious GT GT GT grandfather. I don't know why but I have a real hunch that this is my rellie.

His father was a Mersey Pilot, his son James was a cook on-board Ships, son John was a stationary engine driver on the docks, Son Richard was a Porter on the docks - the only one of the family who wasn't connected to the docks was the eldest child Charles who was a Farrier like his maternal grandfather.

Can anyone spare a little time to help? Unfortunately, I have a disability which means I cant get out to the library myself - I just cant manage public transport on my own, at the mo.

Fingers crossed
Anfieldjanny x

There appears to have been a mistake with some newspapers giving the wrong name. The name should have been George not Robert. Liverpool Mercury's Local News of Thursday 6th April 1871 gives the following account:-


SHOCKING DEATH FROM HYDROPHOBIA AT BOOTLE
- On the 20th of February last, a watchdog, said to be in a rabid state, got loose from the timber yard of Mr. Matthew Gregson, Bootle. The animal ran along the road, and meeting with Mr. George Wilde, a locker in Her Majesty's Customs, who resided at Bootle, it attacked him, threw him down, and bit him severely. A police sergeant happened to come up, and the dog was driven into a yard, where it was shot. Mr. Wilde was under medical care for some time, and it was thought he had got well. Unfortunately a few days ago he became worse, symptoms of hydrophobia manifested themselves, and, after suffering the greatest agony, he died yesterday morning. An inquest will be held on the body.


This death was registered as:-

Name: George Wylde
Age: 32
Quarter:April/May/June
Year: 1871
District: West Derby
Vol: 8b
Page: 408

Probate date was 16 Oct 1871:-

Died: 5 April 1871
Effects: under £200
Occupation: Officer in Her Majesty's Customs
Widow: Harriot Wylde
Address: 22 Derby Road Bootle


Blue

AW Noooo!

Thank you so much Blue, for your prompt and very detailed reply.

I suppose journalism was just as full of mistakes then as it is now

Nevermind, In a way I am glad he didn't come to such a horrible end. Now I shall plod on and keep trying to find him.

If only I could find them all in the 1861 census - it would probably help me find a few more answers.

Thanks once again!
Cheers
Anfieldjanny
Member No 8259

Hi Jan, just a thought - ask your library if you card gives you access to the online newspapers on the Lancashire County Council website
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/onrl/categ ... %20Affairs

If you have your card to hand, click one of the two Newspaper icons which should take you to a login page to enter the number from your library card, it would be very useful for you to be able to access from home and also save you the cost if you are on pay per view on Findmypast.

PS at that date it would be the Liverpool Mercury as the Echo didn't begin until much later.

Hi MaryA

Thanks for your suggestion

I did apply to join the Liverpool Library a few weeks ago for that very reason - I haven't received my library card yet though. I think I will do the same with the Lancashire Library.

I am a member of the Manchester Library but they only have Manchester papers and the usual Times archives etc.

I have a subscription on FMP and Ancestry. The only problem with the FMP newspapers is that you cant just browse them on a certain day - you have to input search criteria - hence my request on here.

Thanks once again!
Cheers
Anfieldjanny

Hi Anfieldjanny,
Some questions....
Is Robert still a hairdresser on the birth certs of the children born after 1851? The census says he is "Out of business".

Do you have a confirmed death date and cert for Ellen Wilde? The cert could indicate whether she was a widow or not when she died.

Have you found Ellen in 1881? If not had she remarried? The condition of 'married' in the 1871 census could be a mistake. When her children marry do any of the certs indicate 'Father - Robert Wilde, deceased'?

Hi DS

I can tell you the whole complicated tale of what I have, if that will help - your input (and that of others) would be most useful:

When I was a little girl, some 40 years ago I was given a large tropical seashell by my grandfather Richard Wilde - he told me it was passed down from his great grandfather Robert, who worked on the ships in Liverpool as a hairdresser to the ladies in who travelled in the posh quarters.

Richard, my grandfather, was born Newton le Willows 1906 - his father was Thomas - born in Golborne, Lancashire April 1878, baptized in Liverpool May 1878, his father was James Wilde, a Cook on Board Ship, according to his and his brother James' birth certificate in 1884; When he married Margaret Mather in Golborne 1874 he was just listed as labourer; Thomas' baptism states James is a Mariner:
There were other children who died in infancy - and I know that in 1876 - his wife and children were in the Atherton Workhouse. His daughter Mary Ellen was born 1876 in Little Hulton, nr Bolton and died in the Atherton Workhouse aged 9 months - she is buried at Golborne; Just to add a note - Mary Ellen Wilde - the father's name is also missing on her birth certificate, but James is listed on her baptism later that year in Golborne. Her birth was registered by her maternal grandmother Elizabeth Mather, birthplace No 2 Elizabeth Street, Little Hulton. They really were all over the place! In 1881 Margaret is listed as married, but resides in Golborne with her father Thomas Mather and her son Thomas, my Gt Grandfather; I haven't found James; By 1891 she is a widow. I have recently tracked down James' death in the Liverpool Workhouse, aged 32 - 26 August 1888 - Occupation - Seaman, cause Apoplexy; Buried at Walton Cemetery, his death was registered by someone at the Workhouse - I have no idea if his wife and children were with him at the time of his death.

My Gt Gt Grandfather James Wilde was born 25 September 1855 at No 9 Lad Lane, Liverpool, Lancashire, his birth certificate does not name his father - however, I have been told that if the father was away at sea, sometimes the name wasn't added until later - like Mary Ellen ?: His mother is named as Ellen Wilde, formerly Brown, Lodging House Keeper; the 1851 Census shows Ellen with her husband ROBERT WILDE, hairdresser, (own business) children Richard and Ann Jane also with them at No 9 Lad Lane Liverpool. I have also found another son - Charles Wilde, who was born 1843 and residing with his maternal Grandparents, Philip and Ann Brown in 1851.
Another child John was born in 1851 - I know this from John's marriage certificate and from Ellen's residence in 1871 - told you it's complicated - mainly because I have yet to find the Baptisms of all the children, including my James

James is in the 1871 census at the Liverpool Farm Reparatory School for boys(also known as Redbank) in Newton le Willows, Lancashire - this is not far from the Golborne boundary where his wife to be Margaret Mather was living - I don't know why he was there - or how long he was there for
This is the ONLY census I have found him in - so the clues are a bit thin on the ground!

As for Robert - I have his baptism and other pension records etc of his River Mersey Pilot father John Wilde (born 1797 in Liverpool to William Wilde and Mary Briscoe) all these all point to Robert being born c1824 in Liverpool.

In 1841 he is with his parents John and Jane (nee Hughes) listed as a Hairdresser, aged 17. I found his marriage - 12 December 1842 at Richmond St Anne's, (states he is 21 but he couldn't have been!) residence, Denison Street, Occ Hairdresser, Father: John Occ: Pilot; Bride - Ellen Brown, aged 19 of Bryden street, father Philip Brown, Vetinery Surgeon (He was a Farrier)

I found a news article dated 1849 which states the hairdressing shop of Robert Wilde on Great Homer street was broken into - thief was caught etc - owner doesn't reside at premises.
Found him 1851 with Ellen as I stated before - after that - nowt! (dau Ann Jane died 1851)
Cant find them as a family in 1861 some possible sightings of the children but not 100% - not including James

Marriage Certificates of Charles 25 Dec 1864, Richard 12 Sep 1864 and John 5 Dec 1872 ALL state their father is ROBERT WILD(E) Hairdresser - None of them state he was deceased !

In 1871 his wife Ellen is a lodger in the household of David and Sarah Jackson in (Diane Street ?) St Ann's Liverpool. She is listed as married and is a Charwoman. David and Sarah's daughter Sarah Ann Jackson married Ellen & Robert's son John in 1872.

Well DS - You did ask!

After my latest addition to War and Peace I think it's time for a brew. ALL help appreciated!

Cheers
Anfieldjanny xx

My Gt Gt Grandfather James Wilde was born 25 September 1855 at No 9 Lad Lane, Liverpool, Lancashire, his birth certificate does not name his father - however, I have been told that if the father was away at sea, sometimes the name wasn't added until later

I have never come across that before. As far as I understand, if a woman was married to the father of the child being registered it was a legal requirement that the father's name be entered on the birth cert. There were no options about this. The father need not be present at registration if he was married to the mother and it was his child, nor was his consent necessary.

If the mother was not married to the father of the child his name could not be put on the registration unless he personally attended the Registrar's office.

If that cert doesn't have a father named but does show the mother as Ellen Wilde formerly Brown there is something very odd about the circumstances. I suspect that it is possible Robert, her husband, was not the father. In the 1851 census Robert is "out of business" for some reason. Perhaps he took a job at sea which would explain his absence from later censuses and, another perhaps, maybe he left after Ellen [now a lodging house keeper in her own right] became pregnant by another man.

I have a similar scenario in my lot that was for years a brick wall in 1881 when I couldn't find my g.father's birth c.1878. Turned out the father of his older siblings had packed his bags and joined the Army in 1876 when his wife became pregnant by another man. She then lived with the 'other man' as his wife and took his surname and gave it as the surname of all her 6 children in 1881. When my g.father married in 1898 he claimed his father was the one who had joined the Army, took his surname and repeated it in 2 later marriages. That fatherhood was biologically impossible because the man was in India when he was conceived.

BTW, thank you for the full story! Fascinating.

Hi DS

I hadn't come across the missing father on the birth certificate before either - not when the mother was married anyhow.

Then it happened twice - Once with James Wilde - the other with my gt gt aunt on my mum's side of the family - her father was a Thomas Dow, Mariner (residence Liverpool at around the same time) - he wasn't on the Birth certificate but was on her baptism 7 weeks later Then he is on a Birth certificate of another child but listed as deceased on her baptism!

Then there is James's daughter Mary Ellen Wilde who also didn't have her father's name on the certificate but he was at her baptism a few months later.

I haven't physically seen the register where births are listed at the registry office - but on all the birth certificates I have purchased there is a box at the end of the certificate which states "10 Name Entered After Registration" - most of the time they have a line running through them - I have often wondered why is it there ??

As for Robert - I will keep digging I have a similar scenario with my Dow family. Again from Liverpool - 5 Children, only 3 survived infancy, 1 of them disappeared, their father listed as either a seaman or mariner on all the births apart from one - and he appears on all their baptism's apart from 1 where he is listed as "father deceased". Cant find a death for him I have his marriage certificate - BUT he and his wife are never together in ANY census.

Hey Ho! I suppose that's what makes families interesting.

Cheers
Anfieldjanny
x

I haven't physically seen the register where births are listed at the registry office - but on all the birth certificates I have purchased there is a box at the end of the certificate which states "10 Name Entered After Registration" - most of the time they have a line running through them - I have often wondered why is it there ??

Children do not have to be named before they can be registered. On occasion you will see births registered as 'Un-named male' or Un-named female'. The heading for Column 2 says 'Name, if any'. I have always thought Column 10 was for occasions when the parent(s) return to the Registrar to add the forename.

her father was a Thomas Dow, Mariner (residence Liverpool at around the same time) - he wasn't on the Birth certificate but was on her baptism 7 weeks later.

Then there is James' daughter Mary Ellen Wilde who also didn't have her father's name on the certificate but he was at her baptism a few months later.

Naming of a father on a baptism is not a legal 'acceptance' of paternity where his name isn't on a birth cert. It may indeed be true but has no legal standing. He may not have even attended the baptism and the priest has to take the mother's word as to who the father was.

As you say... Hey Ho! And I say onward and backward!

Too True

Cheers DS!