Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi, how can I find out what happened to my grandad John Ryan. Last known address 3 Butleigh Road in 1940. He was born 17/05/1893 and married Ada Mcguinness in 1918. She died tragically at the above address 11/12/40. My dad Thomas was put in the brothers orphanage along with his brother Joe.

Unfortunately it's not easy at that date to pinpoint a death from a date of birth as this seems to be before exact birthdates were requested on the death certificate, however, assuming that he still lived in the Liverpool area there are a couple of possible deaths after 1940.

John J Ryan death Q3 1947 Liverpool North 10d 149 age approx 54
John Ryan death Q4 1945 Liverpool South 8b 2 age approx 51
John Ryan death Q1 1967 Liverpool South 10d 597 age approx 76
John Ryan death Q2 1979 Liverpool 36 1096 age approx 83 - Dec 1895

As the last entry is the only one that gives a month, this might be assumed to be able to be discounted.

Your recourse is going to have to be the Record Office I think - firstly to check the address in the Electoral Rolls and see when he was last registered there and secondly to check the obituaries for each of the above deaths to see if you could possibly identify the correct one.

Following that, if you are able to make a decision based on this research, the next step will be to order the death certificate to see who registered the death.

Relating to the death in 1947, there are two possible entries in the Probate Calendar for this man, the first it shouldn't be because it would mean that the death was registered outside the quarter it occurred, but it's still possible. Could be the second. Can't see any Probates for the middle two and the one in 1979 seems too late for the Probate available online.

Ryan John of 21 Caryl Grove Toxteth Park Liverpool 8 died 14 May 1847 Administration Liverpool 21 June to Margaret Ryan widow. Effects £878. 19s. 6d.

Ryan John of 14 Bushey Road Liverpool 4 (the younger) died 15 September 1947 at Broadgreen Emergency Hospital Liverpool 14 Administration Liverpool 29 October to John Ryan factory gate keeper. Effects £251. 10s. 2d.

Hi,
At his marriage John was John J Ryan. Was he John Joseph and where did you get his date of birth from?

This could be his death. The age is right.

Death: RYAN, John J
Registration district: Liverpool North, Lancashire
Year of registration: 1947; Sep qtr
Age at death: 54
Volume no: 10D; Page no: 149

thank you for a very prompt reply.
I was born in Liverpool in 1964 and moved away before I was 1, my parents split up when I was 10 and my dad has since passed away. We have lost all contact with our many Liverpudlian relations whom I would love to find. I have also started to trace my family tree and have gone as far back as 1868 before that I think the Ryans were in Ireland. Is there records available that can tell us which part of Ireland they came from?
My dad used to tell me that he thought his dad ran away, so im not even sure if my grandad died during the war. He may of re-married.
many thanks for your help
Ang

Hi DS,
I have his birth certificate, my dad went into the orphanage in 1942 just before his 10th birthday.
thank you
Ang

Hi Ang,
Have you traced the Ryans and McGuinesses back as far as possible through the censuses? Although most census summary pages often say just 'Ireland' as a place of origin you will sometimes get an extra bonus point with something like Dublin or Wexford. Always worth checking the source after seeing a transcript. There are Irish records but they are often very difficult to find. Why not post what you have found so far with census page references.

Do you have a death cert for Ada Ryan? Her death isn't listed in the GRO Index as such.

ang-ryan64 wrote:Hi DS,
I have his birth certificate, my dad went into the orphanage in 1942 just before his 10th birthday.
thank you
Ang

Your dad would be Thomas so. Regarding John Joseph, I assume this is your g.dad, where was he born? And what were his parents' names and his father's occupation?

And, what was John J's occupation when your dad Thomas was born?

Hi DS,
my niece has all the certificates that we have bought, yes we do have Adas death certificate i think there are a couple of Ada Ryans who died at more or less the same date. Ada hung herself the certifcate confirms this and notes asfixiation by strangulation. We have only traced the Ryan side so far may start with the Mcguinness side soon
Ang

My G.dad was born in Liverpool to Michael Ryan and Catherine Griffiths. Last known occupation of John was a general labourer.

We also have Michaels certificate he was born 28/08/1869 in Liverpool. His parents are Thomas and Jane Flood who we think are Irish but not sure where to find out

Might this be the 1871 census for them?

No 12 Constance? Street, Islington, Liverpool
Thomas Ryan Head M 30 House Joiner Ireland
Jane Wife M 28 Ireland
Mary Theresa daur 9 Ireland
Ann daur 7 Ireland
Thomas son 3 Liverpool
Michael son 1 Liverpool
RG10; Piece: 3789; Folio: 14; Page: 22

The baptism at St Francis Xaviers gives his birth as 21 August (perhaps he was registered a little late) and baptism 6 September 1869. Parents as you have given them. Godmother Margarita Donovan.

Don't see a baptism for Thomas but there are also
Catharina Ryan 12 Nov 1873 21 Nov 1873 Godmother Maria O'Meara
Joanna Agnes Ryan 5 Feb 1875 24 Feb 1875 Godmother Rosanna Maguire
Emilia Ryan 15 Jul 1877 24 Jul 1877 God parents Thomas Flood and Rosa Landy

Just been hoisted with my own petard! Not taking my own advice about sources....

Do you have a death cert for Ada Ryan? Her death isn't listed in the GRO Index as such

It was in the Index which I hadn't checked because it is usually clear as day typewritten. Findmypast had transcribed her age as 6 instead of 46 and the latter age was very clear. Correction submitted minus my under-breath comments!

D.S the air must have been blue...
Hi Ang, I can't find Butleigh Rd in 1938 Gores, any ideas?
Very sad about Ada taking her own life, poor soul.

It seems to be in the Woolfall Heath area of Huyton Tina. But the present day houses are probably built around about the 1950's.

Hi Tina yes very sad about my nan, she hung herself about 2 weeks after the worst single blitz that killed 166 people in Durning Road. Perhaps she lost relatives that night, I would like to find her grave. The full address is 3 Butleigh Road Huyton on her death cert.

Hi Mary,
everyone has been really helpful what a brilliant forum. The 1871 census does tally up with what we have found so where do we go to find out what part of Ireland Thomas Ryan was from?

Hi DS
not hoisted too hard I hope, these things keeps us on our toes

Could be a report in the Prescot Reporter on her death.

ang-ryan64 wrote:Hi Tina yes very sad about my nan, she hung herself about 2 weeks after the worst single blitz that killed 166 people in Durning Road. Perhaps she lost relatives that night, I would like to find her grave. The full address is 3 Butleigh Road Huyton on her death cert.

For the folk who weren't around at the time this is the bombing of Durning Road on the 29th November 1940, during the heaviest air raid to that date.
http://www.liverpoolblitz70.co.uk/tag/durning-road/

ang-ryan64 wrote:Hi Mary,
everyone has been really helpful what a brilliant forum. The 1871 census does tally up with what we have found so where do we go to find out what part of Ireland Thomas Ryan was from?

Unfortunately civil registration of all BMDs did not start in Ireland until September 1864. Protestant 'events' had been recorded since abt 1845 but those records are, with a couple of exceptions, difficult to access. They are not online.

The civil BMDs are online via FamilySearch https://www.familysearch.org/ and include the CLDS database of 'contributed' events. Two of the Ryan daughters were born in Ireland, Mary Teresa abt 1862 and Ann abt 1864. Their mother, Jane Ryan nee Flood was born abt 1843 so she could have married from abt 1860. From a quick search which failed to find Ann's birth I think she was probably born before the civil registration began.

The Irish Family History Foundation http://www.rootsireland.ie/ has a large collection of parish BMD records which is being added to all the time but not all counties are covered yet. The government sponsored site http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ is currently transcribing parish records and is worth checking.