Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Request for help / pointers:

Can anyone indicate where I may find the 1911 census data for ships positioned in the River Mersey on Census date.

In my research of the HOBSON name I have a 1911 census record of a Thomas Henry HOBSON - based at his home address. However the entry for Thomas is scored through and a comment annotated stating that he was 'enumerated on a ship in River Mersey'.

His occupation is 'Mariner - Mate on lightship'

I am therefore looking to try and establish whether he was on one of the Mersey lightships.

Any help much appreciated

Thanks

John

Hi and welcome to the forum.

We would try to help but some more details would be useful, his age for example as I don't find any entry for Thomas Henry Hobson in Liverpool.

Mary,

Thanks for coming back.
The 'home' data I have is for a
- Thomas Henry Hobson (45) - Married - Mariner / Mate on Lightship - b. Liverpool
- Elizabeth Hobson - wife - (nee KELLY) (46)
- Mable Hobson (19)
- Thomas James Hobson (15)
- Elsie Doris Victoria Gertrude Hobson (13)
- Jessie Luckie (3) - adopted child

Address - 186 North Hill Street, Liverpool

This is from the Ancestry Census search - and the annotation referred to in my original note is partially obscured by the blocking of the 'Infirmity' column. However in the Find my Past data this column is visible - and wording as stated.

I know there was more than one lightship operating in the Mersey - up to four I believe - and they would seem the most logical place to start - but non of my searches can find reference to census data on ships.

Thanks

John

Reference for the above is RG14; Piece: 22255.
Everybody noted as having been born Liverpool.
The census does not give the maiden name of Elizabeth but does give the marriage as occurring 22 years previously.

Have you tried checking the information on the National Archives site which usually details which areas may be missing from censuses, or whether there are errors in the documentation which prevent their publication?

Mary,
Thanks for that.
Even with this info my searches are just returning the home address.

Nothing I can find on the National Archives pages are suggesting alternative searches to identify what ships may have been recorded - or where such records are grouped.

I appreciate your time, and will continue trying to find the answer

Regards

John

I think the lack of any other responses from our helpful forum members seems to confirm that they also have not discovered anything, could a direct query to the National Archives be possible?

Hello John,
According to the National Archives, the census record for 1911 does not appear to cover ships at sea other than Royal Navy. Merchant ships are only included when docked at a British post and they would be recorded within the relevant Census District.

All English and Welsh light-vessels were maintained by Trinity House, based in London, with the exception of the four vessels in the approaches to the River Mersey, which were maintained by the Mersey Docks and Harbour Board until 1973.

If Thomas' light vessel was more than 3 miles from the coast perhaps it would not actually enumerated because they were outside 'British waters'. Be an idea to contact the Liverpool Maritime Museum for information.

Thanks Mary & Dickiesam, for your additional replies.

I take the point re 'distance from shore', but given that the 'home address' record has his name scored through and an annotation added related to having been enumerated on ship in River Mersey, I am all pursuing the possibilities - in what I hope is a logical order; i.e. starting with known locations for lightships in the Mersey.
As you mentioned the four ships in the Mersey were managed by the MDHB.

I have a query outstanding with the Merseyside Maritime Museum, who hold the MDHB record archive, but am awaiting their reply - knowing that they will/can only provide general information rather than any detailed findings.
If I get a positive response that data/info exists relating to the lightships I will plan a visit to do some detailed research.

I take your point that only ships in dock may have been recorded. I had a pointer from elsewhere that ships were 'generally' allocated a enumeration reference at the end of the District sequence. I have spent quite some time this afternoon working through the Liverpool Districts of Abercrombie / Exchange and Scotland and paging through about 500 images of ships in dock - without success. A number of these were referenced to the MDHB - but no mention of lightships.

As ever - further work required !!!

Thanks again for your input.
Regards
John

Hello John,
You may have noticed that the 1911 census form had been completed and signed by the 13 year old child Elsie. Probably all she knew was that her dad was on a lightship but not which one. The vessels within the 3 mile limit would have been enumerated but the enumerator who checked the Hobson household form had no way of knowing which ones.

Perhaps the Museum who hold the archives of the MDHB would have crew lists.

Yes, you are right Dickiesam, there are several possibilities.

However the annotation mentioned the River Mersey, and is not in the hand of the person completing the form - so I assume this would have been the enumerator.
Interestingly in a small number of the census pages I worked through on-line today there are comments from enumerators regarding other 'inconsistencies' in names of people who were (or were not) on board a particular ship, perhaps because the form was completed a little while ahead of the actual census date - and then checked on the census night when the crew were present.

The Merseyside Maritime Museum holds the MDHB archive collection, but according to their website little (if any) has been digitised. My query to them (awaiting a reply) is asking about the type of records they hold - whether that be crew lists - or other employment information / history etc.

The 1911 census entry for the family (home address) has already confirmed some significant links, which had previously been unexplained in our research, and a secondary piece of research I am following is whether I can tie this Thomas Henry HOBSON back to a 1881 census entry for him during his time on a training ship.

I am really trying to flush out all the possibilities before I commit to whatever trips may be necessary to pursue this.

I live on the South coast of England - so it is a little more than 'popping up the road' in the car.

Thanks again for your reply

John

However the annotation mentioned the River Mersey, and is not in the hand of the person completing the form - so I assume this would have been the enumerator.

Your are right in that the pencilled 'correction' [lining through] of Thomas' line and the notation about the Mersey would have been done by the enumerator when he/she collected the form. The details on it would be checked with the householder and questions asked to clear up any queries. I don't know if you are a scouser or not, but the Mersey goes all the way to the Irish Sea and beyond as far as most scousers are concerned. If the enumerator asked who Thomas worked for he may have been given the answer 'Mersey Docks and Harbour Board' so River Mersey went down on the form.

Sadly after all this time it is impossible to be sure what questions were asked and what answers given, and by whom, about a comment written possibly by the enumerator after discovering that the head of the household wasn't "at home" on the day.

lancsman wrote: I live on the South coast of England - so it is a little more than 'popping up the road' in the car.

We recently had a talk from one of the staff of the Maritime Archives who said how traditionally helpful they had all been with enquiries. Their problem nowadays is shortage of staff however, if you explain your distance and what the query is, I'm sure they will try their best for you.

Yes, It may all be lost in the mist of time.

In my note to the Maritime Museum I did mention that I lived some distance away - and I know they must get many enquiries - so will have to be patient a little longer.

No, I am not a Scouser, although my mother was born in Liverpool, but her mother was born in Manchester and the links between the two cities have a few twists and turns. But that is another story.

In fact I grew up in an area to the south of Manchester (Northenden) closer to the Mersey than many inhabitants of Lierpool itself. At that point the Mersey represented the boundary between Lancashire & Cheshire, but the area immediately to the south of the river was sub-sumed into Manchester and therfore Lancashire.

Thanks for all your help, much appreciated.

Regards

John

Just to close this item out -

I have now had a very useful reply from the Mersey Maritime Museum regarding my original query to them.

As I expected they are not able to provide research assistance for specific names etc, but the reply did confirm that their archive contains Staff Records and Minute books for the Mersey Docks & Harbour Board. In addition the reply also included a lengthy attachment of details of records held - itself a document of 150 pages plus.

I need to spend some time working through this document to identify the most likely items that will assist my research.
Once I have done this I will plan a trip North to spend a day (or more) looking at the detailed records.

Thanks for the pointers everybody.

Regards

John

Hello John,
Thank you for coming back with an update. Pleased you got worthwhile help from the Mersey Maritime Museum and even documentation to get your teeth into.

It's a good start anyway. If you can manage to visit to do some research, try to include a Tuesday and also pop into the Record Office where the Society hosts a Help Desk during the afternoon, they would also try and point you in the right direction.

MaryA wrote:It's a good start anyway. If you can manage to visit to do some research, try to include a Tuesday and also pop into the Record Office where the Society hosts a Help Desk during the afternoon, they would also try and point you in the right direction.

Was there any further information from Lancsman ?
I am interested as the Elsie Victoria Gertrude Hobson he quotes was my Grandmother and I also have more information from family regarding Thomas Henry Hobson.
I would like to get in touch but he seems no longer to be a member.
Ken

Hi, welcome to the forum.

Sadly lancsman did become a member of the Society and subsequently didn't remain a member of the forum.

If there is anything we can help with, it might be better to begin a new post and request assistance.

MaryA wrote:Hi, welcome to the forum.

Sadly lancsman did become a member of the Society and subsequently didn't remain a member of the forum.

If there is anything we can help with, it might be better to begin a new post and request assistance.

Mary, thanks for responding.

I was going to offer lancsman further info about Thomas Henry Hobson and the associated family tree including several photographs and details of his training on "Clio" off Anglesey, early days in sailing ships, later career with the MDHB and subsequent adventures in retirement. However I seemed to have missed the boat by two years as it were!

Since he has left the society, I don't suppose there is any mechanism for getting in touch now?

Regards
Ken

kenberks wrote: Since he has left the society, I don't suppose there is any mechanism for getting in touch now?

I'm sorry Ken, I didn't realise I had made a typo, it should have read that he didn't join the Society, so we have no contact details for him.