Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi all
I thought I'd say a quick hello, now that I've sorted out membership I'll be posting some puzzles the memorial has thrown up in the hope that someone out there can help - some of you have been extremely helpful already.

For those of you who don't know, the memorial was stolen from St James Church in 1992 (the church was closed 1972-2010) I have a photograph of the memorial and from that have been researching the names on it. All the info I have already is on the blog (see below)

There are 5 names still unidentified (from 62) and I'd love to be able to find them all, a fragment of the memorial has turned up in a village 100 miles away (no idea how!) and we're working to get the rest of the memorial recreated so it can be rededicated in the original position when the church is reopened.

Here's one to get you started:
all I know is the name Thomas GIRVIN and the assumption that he, or his parents attended St James Church, Toxteth.
What little I have gathered so far is here http://thewarmemorial.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... irvin.html

Amanda

Hello Amanda,
Just a long shot..
Could the name be Thomas G Irvin? This from the CWGC site:

IRVIN, THOMAS
Rank: Able Seaman
Date of Death: 13/06/1917
Age: 63
Regiment/Service: Mercantile Marine - S.S. "Kelvinbank" (Glasgow)
Panel Reference:
Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL
Additional Information: Son of the late John and Jane Irvin. Born at Liverpool.

There's a Thomas Irvine in 1901 with a widowed mother Jane...
IRVINE, Thomas - Brother-in-law - u/m - 46 - 1855 - Seaman, ship's steward - Liverpool.
Address: 33 Edinburgh Road, West Derby.
RG13 - Piece: 3494 - Folio: 39 - Page: 20

The name on the memorial is definitely Thomas Girvin and that's from the family church so I'd rely on it to be correct. Edinburgh Rd isn't near the church but I suppose they could have moved and the CWGC could have missed off the G - wouldn't be their first mistake but I'd rate this as unlikely.

Thanks for the ideas though, much appreciated

Amanda

Hi,

Another one for consideration?

There is a baptism for

Thomas Douglas Girvan
birth date: 16/5/1892
bapt: St peter 27/5/1892

Father: Douglas Girvan
mother: Mary

1901 census: RG13 Piece3427 Folio 128 pg. 16
All born L.pool

Address:4/4/ Stanhope street Tox Park

Douglas Girvan c1852 occ: gen lab
Mary c1864
Fred Hugh Girvan c1885
THOMAS c1892


c 1910 census

I cannot find the same family?

There is a Douglas GERVIN born c 1852 Lpool on the c 1910(Anc transcription) living 54 Kingslake street West Derby widowed & boarder occ: stone polisher (no other family with him)
RG14 Piece:22590


There is a record on Anc. for a Thomas Douglas Girvan

Canada, Soldiers of WW1 1914-18

I don't have those subs.. possibly he went to Canada and joined up there?
Would that qualify to be on the St James Memorial?

As I say one for consideration.

Gray

Gray wrote: There is a record on Anc. for a Thomas Douglas Girvan

Canada, Soldiers of WW1 1914-18

I don't have those subs.. possibly he went to Canada and joined up there?
Would that qualify to be on the St James Memorial?

The only help I can give for this one is
Name: Thomas Douglas Girvan
Birth Date: 16 May 1892
Birth Location: Liverpool, Girvan
Relative: Douglas Girvan
Regiment Number: 23

The image doesn't appear to be attached correctly and can't be seen.

That's a pity Mary..


It looks as though the father died there also.

Douglas Girvan
Ontario, Canada, Deaths, 1869-1938 and Deaths Overseas, 1939-1947


Maybe the two brothers went there and the father joined them later after the death of his wife?
Am looking for Fred Hugh Girvan to see if he wnt to canada also?

Gray

edit: Yes, the brother went also:

Fred Hugh Girvan
Canada, Soldiers of the First World War, 1914-1918

Could this be Thomas?

Name: Thos GIRVAN
Date of departure: 5 July 1912
Port of departure: Liverpool
Passenger destination port: Quebec, Canada
Passenger destination: Quebec, Canada
Date of Birth: 1892 (calculated from age)
Age: 20
Occupation: Gardener
Passenger recorded on Page 1 of manifest.
Ship: VICTORIAN

That looks promising, the address on Stanhope would mean they were in the right area. One of the other names on the memorial was Liverpool born but volunteered in Canada so that's no problem - I think they just had to have relatives in the congregation who put their names forward for the memorial.

I've found him on the Canadian Expeditionary Force records with the regimental number 26203 but no record of his death on the CWGC, can anyone spot a record of his death anywhere?


edit:
no sign of him in the Canadian 'circumstances of death' records either.

Welcome to this forum!
Great work on the memorial, with huge amount of detail.
I thought I might be able to help with filling the blanks, but there is not much to add, from what I saw in a quick swing through the names.
Congratulations.
Daggers

c 1910 census:

Listed as Thomas Douglas Gervan occ: lift attendant (cannot send error, don,t know correct sp.)
RG14 Piece 22596

address: 1 Albert Terrace Edge Hill L.pool (no family with him) boarder living with Annie Martin & family born c 1845 Crosby

Also there is a death for a Thomas D Girvan
birth year a bit close for comfort..

Thomas D Girvan
Birth Date: abt 1893
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1960
Age at Death: 67
Registration district: Liverpool North
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 10d
Page: 304

On saying that, at this moment I cannot find a birth for a Thomas D Girvan (using soundex)

Only one is:Girvan Thomas Liverpool June 1892 8b 112

Gray

Same census as before... c1910...
GIRVAN, Thomas - Head - Married - 40 - Seaman - [13 Brassey St Liverpool]
With wife, son and 2 nephews (?).

There is a marriage Anc.

Thomas Douglas Girvan

31/7/1915 Holy Trinity Walton Breck

Groom: Thomas Douglas Girvan 28 bachelor occ: Smelter
address: 24 Old Barn Road
Father Douglas Girvan occ: stone polisher

(So this is the Douglas(father) on the c1910 census, previous post)his occ: stone polisher

Bride: Annie Elizabeth Davidson 28 Spinster
address: 19 S Ambrose Grove
Father: George McDonald Davidson occ: sheet metal worker.

Both sign their names

witnesses: Richard Hesketh & Henrietta Davidson

I cannot find any children born to Girvan/Harrison L.pool. Possibly they went to Canada soon after marriage?

Then there is another record listed:

Thomas Douglas Girvan Acadia, Canada, Vital and Church records (Drouin Collection), 1670 -1946

Again I cannot view(no subs).


There is also a possible marriage for his brother.. Fred/Frederick. 18/11/1903 St. Nathaniel Edge Hill Father Douglas Girvan occ: labourer.

There is a burial giving a Toxteth connection:
The mother of Thomas & Fred/Frederick.
Looking at her age at death, her birth year would be 1864.. this is her birth year listed on the 1901 census & fits in with her husband being widowed c 1910 census
Not sure where Southampton st; was?

GIRVAN Mary 39 years - 24 Southampton Street 29 April 1903 4567 91048 C 13 480 352 CEM 9/1/18

Gray

Hi Alison,

I think it's back to the drawing board..

It must have been another Thomas Douglas Girvan that went to Canada

Annie Elizabeth Girvan died 11th May 1965 at 96 Upper Parliament street
Leaving a sum of money to a Thomas D Girvan occ: schoolmaster.

I am presuming this was her son. There was a Thomas Douglas Girvan born West Derby 1st qtr 1928 8b 1048..
mothers maiden name Davidson

There are more children.

No wonder I could not find any children, I had put it the wrong name for the mother apologies!

I really thought we had found him..

Gray

Just a couple of points. The information that is on the CWGC was inserted about 6 years after the war ended by which time wives had remarried, and families had moved, sometimes emigrated. Also I have just come across a obituary notice for a Lance Corporal Wilfred Cope who was with the Rifle Brigade, his parents resided in Nantwich but he was engaged to May from Wavertree and he is recorded on St Bridget, Wavertree. So keep a open mind about living close to the church.

Thanks everyone for putting so much work in.

Good point Kathy, I do have a couple of other names that aren't from the area but I can usually find that they at least had an aunt or sister etc living near St James.

I'm thinking of looking more closely at the Thomas Girvin aged 67 and a boiler maker who died in 1917. He has the correct spelling, lived in Park Road and died at the right time - if he was killed in some work related to the war effort I think the family would have put his name forward for the parish memorial - any thoughts?

Do you have a date of death or burial? A obituary notice may throw some light on it. Also you may be interested to know that there was a committee for the St. James Memorial. Minutes for this are at Sandhills, which may be of help.

I have come across so many obituary notices for Soldiers who were discharged due to illness and also died in Military Hospitals and they are not recorded on the CWGC Here are a few that I have in my index I am compiling.

Royal Army Medical Corps
Halsall
John
Anfield
9th June 1917
Illness
(During Training) Son of Mrs Sarah Halsall and the late J.J. Halsall, of 26, Clovelley Road, Anfield.
OBIT

I cant find his medal card to give him a number.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Border Regiment
Callaghan
17252
Michael Patrick
Private
Liverpool
Died of sickness 15, Lace Street, Liverpool. (Died at the Military Hospital, Colchester,
Buried at Cemetery grave R1127 4/8/16-Echo

He is recorded on Liverpool Town Hall Database
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheshire Regiment
Watts
2495
Percy Alyn
Private
Liverpool
30th October 1916
Died through illness contacted on active service
14, Alderson Road, Liverpool.
Roll of Honor notice-30/10/17-Echo

Recorded on St. Bridget, Wavertree War Memorial. His service records have survived and he was struck down with TB while on active service in France and discharged but died of his illness on 30th October 1916.

I do keep a look out for Obituaries placed in the paper and if its war related they go in my data base.

This is just 3 of others I have.

I will see if there is a obituary for him.

Wish I could win the Lotto and get death certificates for these soldiers.

Hi Katie

The info for Thomas Girvin is:

name:GIRVIN Thomas
age:67 years
occupation: Boiler Maker
address:346 Park Road Toxteth Park
date of burial: 6 September 1917
Toxteth Park Cemetery
His wife Ann and daughter Ann Eliza were interred in the same grave in 1920 and 1935 respectively.


I do have some minutes about the memorial, I think they are from the St James vestry meetings, another thing to put on the long list for my next visit to Sandhills, I hope I can get there before it's closed down for moving again but I guess a few more months wait won't change anything.

I know what you mean about a lotto win, a certificate here and there, a subscription to Ancestry and it quickly mounts up, and I've only got 62 names on my list, I can't imagine how many you're working with! Do you pass their details on to the In From The Cold Project?

Amanda

Katie
Your Halsall , RAMC, man would not have a medal card if he was still in training and had not served in a war zone.
I think contact with the 'In from the Cold' project, via the Great War Forum, is a good suggestion. They may be able to help with death certs.
D