Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

please can anybody help me,
my g grandfather Arthur Robinson b 1871
his father name Thomas, mothers name Emma
i have naval records showing his mother name,his fathers name shown on his marriage cert as being deceased 1891,
his wife Rose Desmit (marriage cert shows Rose Smith) B 1871, IN 1881 census shows Rose born at sea , baptised in Santa Rosa, Peru,
I know by the census we have , they settled in Liverpool, and acording to naval records they lived at various addresses including,
58 Prince Edward Lane Liverpool
27 Conway Street Liverpool
46
16 Travers Street Liverpool
1911 census shows name as Rabinson, even with all this information i cannot trace his birth cert, any help would be much appreciated June

Hi and welcome to the forum.

In the 1911 census at 110 Still Street, Rose states that she was born in Peru, married for 19 years and with 5 children out of 8 still living. She is noted as head of the household and Arthur's details have been crossed through, his age was given as 39. Had he died or was he just away from home at that time? Rose signed the census sheet. He presumably had been home within the previous five years as children were Mary Ann 14, Rose 13, Thomas 9, Arthur 6 and Margaret 4, all born Liverpool.

Do I have the correct family in 1901 at 38 Gordon Street, North Everton?
Rose Robinson Wife M 28 Charwoman and Fruit Hawker America USA
Mary A daur 4 Liverpool, England
Rose daur 2 " "
Sebatus Smith Mother Wid 50 Charwoman born France B.S.
RG13; Piece: 3473; Folio: 154; Page: 55

The marriage took place at St Sylvesters on 3 February 1891
Arthur Robinson of 11 Bangor Street
Father Thomas Robinson
Rosaliam Desmith of 16 Slade Street
Father Francisci Desmith
Witnesses Johannie Carney, 15a Leyden Street and Helena Forshaw, 3 Leyden Street

You obviously have the full marriage certificate rather than just the copy parish register, can you give the occupations of the fathers please and ages at marriage from it.

Do his Naval Records actually state that he was born in Liverpool as without census evidence of Arthur this is so far unclear.

Good wombating Mary, well done.

Welcome aboard June

Had a look in 1894 Directory
No Prince Edwd Lane only Prince Edwin in Everton.
Not listed at the number given

i have naval records

Are these Royal Navy or Merchant Navy? If Royal Navy do they show when and where he enlisted? I assume his mother's name is given as his next of kin?

In the later records was his last rank or position [with a date] and what was his service number? Finally, what is the link showing that the Arthur Robinson who married Rose is the same one as in those naval records?

If Arthur was born before the 1871 census, and we know given ages can be so unreliable, this is the only hit for an Arthur bn abt 1870 +/- 2, with an Emma in the household... and his dad's a Thomas.

ROBINSON, Thomas - Head - 48 - Farmer of 12 acres - Cheshire
ROBINSON, Emma - Wife - 44 - Cheshire
ROBINSON, Charlotte - Dtr - u/m - 20 - Cheshire
ROBINSON, Frederick - Son - 13 - Staffordshire
ROBINSON, Arthur - Son - 2 - Loppington, Shropshire.
Address: Mill Lane, Whixall, Shropshire
RG10 - Piece: 2795 - Folio: 111 - Page: 6

With a brother 11 years older, he's not going to inherit the farm "so RN(?) here I come"?

Hi, all, Willow,
This family rings a bell, having had sight of Arthur's marriage cert, he declares his age as 25 years old, the marriage taking place in 1891 gives him a birth date of 1866 ish. perhaps a typo you made.

Being able to view others on Ancestry researching the same person,
Thomas his father declared on cert as a labourer,

How certain are you of his mother being Emma and do you have her maiden name?



Bert

Hi and welcome to the forum, thanks for jumping in with hopefully some information to help with this query.

Thanks to everyone who replied i am really grateful.
He joined the R N R in June1901 and was discharged 29 Jan1918, his number was U1113
He was a leading stoker when he was discharged.
his records show he was born in Liverpool, and one of his addresses was Prince Edward Lane Liverpool
mothers name was Emma , no maiden name for her,
PS hello again to Bertione and Dickiesam you were so helpful in the past.
June member no.1748

Bertieone wrote:Hi, all, Willow,
This family rings a bell, having had sight of Arthur's marriage cert, he declares his age as 25 years old, the marriage taking place in 1891 gives him a birth date of 1866 ish. perhaps a typo you made.

Being able to view others on Ancestry researching the same person,
Thomas his father declared on cert as a labourer,

How certain are you of his mother being Emma and do you have her maiden name?
Bert

Hello Bert,
Great to see you again! Missed you!
Can you recall what was Arthur's occupation on his marriage cert?

Hello DS,
Hope you're keeping well,
Its not a good image and I can't make it out.
Hopefully Willo can help.



Bert

I've been having a look at the many trees on Ancestry. there is a copy of the marriage certifictae but is quite difficult to read and I cannot make out Arthur's occupation. The trees suggest his mother is called Rose.

I've seen Royal Navy records before and they don't have any addresses or next of kin on them (not at this time anyway). It would be intersting to see the RNR service record.

Hello DS and Bert his marriage cert states he was an oilcake miller (WHAT EVER THAT IS)
June

willowart1 wrote:Hello DS and Bert his marriage cert states he was an oilcake miller (WHAT EVER THAT IS)
June

This is almost the same occupation. The part-processed seed would arrive at the mill in the form of 'cake', a kind of semi-compressed sludge.
From: http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/n-o.html#O
Oil Miller - Miller of seed to extract oils for food manufacture. Rapeseed, cottonseed, linseed etc. Cottonseed oil was also used to lubricate the spinning mule.

It was a very dirty messy job.

Hi June,
Some thoughts to throw in to the mix,

Have you checked the Merchant records for Arthur?
The RNR is/was a reserve force and was not called up for full time duties until 1914 ish, outbreak of hostilities. I notice Arthur's 2 sons on their marriage certs declare their father as, Steamship Fireman and Seaman, marriages taken place in 1924 and 1927. I tend to believe that peacetime occupations were offered up to be recorded and not Military if it wasn't their full time occupation.

Arthur's absence from the 1901 and 1911 census would not be so strange for a Merchant seaman but I ask what would be the chances of a reservist being on exercise on both occasions.

On Arthur's wedding cert, 1891, he declares himself 25 years old which gives a birth date 1866 ish,
Have you a doubt about this?

On the Catholic Burial records, Arthur Robinson 1922, aged 51, how confident are you this is the correct Arthur?

I know this is not conclusive by any means, Arthur and Rosa had 8 children and some were named after themselves and their grandfathers, I understand them not using Rosa's mother's name but I would have thought an Emma would have been in there somewhere,

We'll get there in the end,

Bert

Hi everyone,
Arthurs date of birth 1871 is correct, I have been talking to two of his grandchildren, and he was married to Rose Dsmit, Smith,De Smith, i have seen where her grave is in Ford Cemetry, I have sent Hilary( education officer) the Royal Navy RNR papers as she expressed that she would like to have a look at them, I would have liked to place them on the forum but was told to get in touch with her by p m ,if anybody else would like to see them please get in touch.
The papers from the Naval Archives were RNR , and states place of birth Liverpool, mother and father, Emma and Thomas.
PLEASE, PLEASE I would love some help to trace his birth cert.
Thanks June member no. 8381

The only Robinson family with an Arthur and a Thomas in the household for the 1871 census is the one I posted on the 12th of September. That family was enumerated in the Registration District of Wem.

This would appear to be the relevant birth of that Arthur Robinson:
Birth: ROBINSON, Arthur
Registration district: Wem, Shropshire
Year of registration: 1869; Quarter of registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
Volume no: 6A; Page no: 771.

I have received a copy of the records and they are very interesting. His RNR records clearly ste that his parents are Thomas and Emma and that he was born 14 Feb 1871in Liverpool. The first address given on them is 10 cour 4 house Prince Edwin Street. He first appears to have seen service with the RNR from the end Dec 1909 to Jan 1910. He served a portion of every year until called up at outbreak of war in 1914. He was discharged on 11 Feb 1918. His records state died 6 Sept 1922.

The seamen's records free index on FMP indicate a possible candidate for Arthur.

The marriage certificate at first site indicates an age of 25 years but it actually looks as if there has been an 0 drawn on top of the 5 so it could be 20 which ties in with the age on the RNR records. The wife Rose is mentioned on the records.

I cannot see a likely Thomas and Emma as parents for Arthur so perhaps he wasn't born in Liverpool but moved there at a young age and so thought he was born there.

There is a certified copy of the marriage entry made in 1922 which states Arthur was of 11 Bangor Street at time of marriage. This is certified from St Sylvester's church. This house is uninhabited in the 1891 census!

Hi,

1891, 11 Bangor St was occupied by Henry Webb and his children,

Henry was a widower and born in Nova Scotia, Dock labourer,

Class: RG12; Piece: 2975; Folio: 31; Page: 1

The marriage certificate at first site indicates an age of 25 years but it actually looks as if there has been an 0 drawn on top of the 5 so it could be 20 which ties in with the age on the RNR records.

I suspect the marriage cert has been interfered with, possibly when Arthur used it when joining the RNR, in order to change his age for 'qualification' purposes.

And the given precise date of birth is odd because there isn't an Arthur R birth registered in 1871 in Liverpool. Maybe it is actually a baptism date?

I've been sent a copy of the marriage certificate sent from Liverpool in I think 200? (the last number is missing because of the photo copying as it wasn't on an A4 sheet then.) The alteration could be done by whoever owns the copy as if it was the registrar it should have a message indicating the alteration.

Interstingly Arthur has signed as Arthur Robson and then added "in". Surely he should have been able to spell his own name the writing is quite good - is that a clue?

I'm wondering whether he was perhaps born with a different surname. Maybe his parents weren't married when he was born?