THOMAS CUMMINGS, CABINET MAKER

[homepridefred2]

Hi

Can anyone help me ?

I am trying to locate either Thomas Cummings ( Father ), a Cabinet Maker, or William Cummings ( Son ), a Seaman in the Merchant Service, on the 1841 or 1851 Census. ( I don't have any DOB'S, birth places or the name of Thomas's spouse, Sorry )

All I do know is that William ( Son ) got married to Ann Scallan on 29th March 1852 in Liverpool, and they were both living at Wright Street, Liverpool. ( per their Marriage Cert )

William died in the first quarter of 1855, and Ann gave birth to a son, William Jnr on 31st May 1855 whilst living at 21 Walmsley Street, Liverpool. ( per W's Birth Cert ).

I am unable to find Ann or William Jnr on the 1861 or 1871 Census as they had moved from Walmsley St by then. Does anyone know what happened to them ?

Any ideas ?

Homepridefred

[Tina]

Hi Homepridefred...love your title!!
Welcome to the forum and best wishes for a good result.
Does the marriage cert say if William was full age? also Ann?
Thanks
Ann may have remarried by 1861? Wm jr could be listed under stepfather's surname?

[MaryA]

Hi and welcome to the forum, although I think you may already be a forum member and lost your login?

29th March, 1852 at St James Church, Walton on the Hill
William Cummings Full Age Bachelor Mariner Wright Street
Father Thomas Cummings Cabinet Maker
Ann Scallan Full Age Spinster Wright Street
Father John Scallan Mariner
Wm Cummings and Ann Scallen (note the spelling) appear to have signed their own names
Witnesses Henry Mullen and Thomas Matthews

[MaryA]

There's a useful manner of searching the parish register marriages on Ancestry, where I used just the first name Ann and father's surname of Scall*n, I had hoped that this might have thrown up something but unfortunately did not.

[MaryA]

There is an entry for a burial for a Thomas Cummings at Walton Park on 21st February, 1879, abode Workhouse that might be worth checking out. His age is 50 years, although I suspect he might be the Thomas with wife Mary at Court 2 No. 12 Rosehill, Islington in 1871. He is a dock porter, born Manchester and his wife born Cumberland.

It's difficult to be sure that he was actually in Liverpool, he could have lived anywhere.

Trying to ascertain ages, I was looking for Ann.

Now I always think it might be worth looking into the connection of names. See my post above with a witness to the marriage being Thomas Matthews.

In the 1851 census there is
15 Waterloo Road, Howard Street, Liverpool
Eliza Clewseth? Head Widow 29 Beer House Keeper Wexford
Catherine Scallion Visitor Widow 58? Wexford
Ann Scallion Visitor Unm 19 Par Maid Wexford
Catharine Matthews Servant U 30 House Servant Dundalk
HO107; Piece: 2178; Folio: 352; Page: 35

[dickiesam]

I am unable to find Ann or William Jnr on the 1861 or 1871 Census as they had moved from Walmsley St by then. Does anyone know what happened to them ?

Do you have evidence that Alice and her son William were actually alive after 1855?

[MaryA]

Good point DS, is young William Homepridefred2's direct ancestor?

[dickiesam]

Good point DS, is young William Homepridefred2's direct ancestor?

That's my thinking and if yes, when and where does he reappear in a census, with what surname?

[MaryA]

Gut feeling is telling me the Cummings were either Welsh or Scottish, of course I may be wrong.

[Hilary]

Could this be Thomas?

HO 107 piece 2185 folio 562 page 7

1851 census 60 Birkett Street Liverpool (think that's the address)
Thomas Cummings 76 cabinet maker retired born Scotland
Elizabeth wife 68 born Kent Boughton

Thomas and Elizabeth could be in Stoke Damerel Devon in 1841

[homepridefred2]

Hi

Using Ancestry, I am unable to find any Thomas Cummings living in Liverpool in 1851.
What am I doing wrong ?

To answer all of you questions, I reply

Yes I have been a member before, and I have been searching for the birth of my Great Grandfather, William Cummings born circa 1855 for quite some while, but his Marriage Cert said his father was Thomas, and his Death Cert said his middle name was Mundle.

So I have been searching for a father called Thomas and a Mundle with no results. Very frustrating.

I ordered a copy of a Birth Cert re William Cummings born 1855 / Liverpool in desperation but the father was William, deceased. Using the mother's name, Ann Scallan I managed to trace a Marriage in 1852 giving the info I have given you all, ( And yes the ages do say " full ", very helpful I'm sure ).

I am assuming that my Grandfather, not knowing his father thought of his grandfather ( Thomas ) as his father, hence the name on the Marriage Cert. Just a thought !

I could be wrong, but desperation leads me on as nothing with William circa 1855 makes any sense.

It is like before his marriage to Elizabeth Giles in 1879 ( Plymouth ) that he did not exist.

His Death Cert also says that he was a Naval Pensioner, but yet again a dead end.

I know everything about him from 1879 to 1927 ( Living in Plymouth ), but nothing from 1855 to 1878.

Was Thomas his father or grandfather ?

Was William and Ann his parents ?

Was he christened with the middle name Mundle ?

Where does the Mundle name come from ?

Was he in the Navy or Merchant Services ?

Lots of questions and no answers, but even when someone else finds a lead in 1851, I still struggle.

Is it me ???

Just to throw another spanner in the works the family think that there maybe a Norwegian link in Trondheim ??? Apparently, William was very good with languages and sometimes acted as an interpreter when the cruiseliners came into Plymouth. Quite clever for a seaman who became a coal dealer.

Help ?

Homepridefred

[Hilary]

What did you think of the 1851 census I posted?

[moya]

There is a record of an Ann Cummings marrying Thomas Clark in 1861. The 1871 census shows her born Ireland age 39. The children of that marriage are quite young which makes me think that she was in her 30's when married to Thomas Clark, so maybe a second marriage. No sign of young William though. Moya

[moya]

There is a William Cumming (without the S) on Ancestry.com, crew lists, born Liverpool 1855. 1875 second mate certificate. 1878 Mate certificate. Dec 1879 Master certificate. He was living in Swansea at the time. Moya

[homepridefred2]

Hi Education Officer

I am using Ancestry and no Thomas or Elizabeth come up living in Liverpool in 1851

What am I doing wrong, or are you using a different search criteria ?

Can you search on the page filio ref ?

HO 107 piece 2185 folio 562 page 7

1851 census 60 Birkett Street Liverpool (think that's the address)
Thomas Cummings 76 cabinet maker retired born Scotland
Elizabeth wife 68 born Kent Boughton

Homepridefred

[Hilary]

Search using the full reference I gave you or try variants of the name such as Cunnings.

I just transcribed the entry.

[dickiesam]

Searching with the census reference that Hilary provided, HO107 - Piece: 2185 - Folio: 562 - Page: 7, produces this:

CUMMINGS, Thomas - Head - 76 - Cabinet maker - Scotland.
CUMMINGS, Elizabeth - Wife - 68 - Boughton, Kent.
Address: 60 Birkett Street, Soho, Liverpool.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boughton_under_Blean