Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi,
An ancestor of mine, William Bache, was a member of the Quaker religious community in Liverpool. He became a member around 1853 (probably moved there), and died and was buried there in 1855. I have documentation of these events. I would like to see if I can get a copy of his Will or Administration. Probably because of the year that he died, and the fact that he was Quaker, these may not be available from the civil justice.gov resource. I live in USA so must order copies of documents, or view them online. My end purpose is to see if he had a wife or children. I have found no evidence thus far (ordered death certificate as welel), so would like to view a Will, or other documents related to his estate at death. Thanks for any advice.

Before 1858 all wills were proved in the established church court irrespective of the denomination of the person. For Liverpool that was at Chester as Liverpool was within the Chester Diocese. There is a listing of available wills online (it does have some ommissions) but there is no William Bache listed for around 1855. All wills that still exist before 1858 are held at Lancashire Record Office. However as he had only recently moved to the area it is possible that a will could have been proved elsewhere. Where did he come from?

Notice of his burial can be found on Ancestry. To obtain his death certificate you will need this reference

William Bache
September Quarter
West Derby Registration District
Volume 8b page 305.

You can order online at http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

The burial notice on Ancestry says he was about 35 years old.

Welcome to the forum. I am sure you will get lots of help here.
Until 1858 probate in England was administered by the Church of England, and for those who left a will in Liverpool it would be proved at Chester. However, the wills themselves are now kept in the Lancashire Record Office, Preston. They are listed in books which are available there, and at Liverpool's Record Office.
Someone with better legs than I have may be able to look up for you. If a will exists, Preston will be able to send a copy at reasonable cst. It was five pounds sterling last time
I had one.
Daggers

Hi,
Do you happen to know William's occupation or trade, or his age, when he died?

EDITED to remove incorrect information.

Thank-you both for your help! William was born in Perran Wharf, Cornwall, and was last on that census in 1841. In the 1851 census he is not with his family in Cornwall. I believe that I found him (listed as 'William Backe') in the 1851 census in Birmingham. He is listed as an engineer, born in Mylor, Cornwall (I believe that the Mylor area may have included Perran Wharf, or may have been better known?). I see that there is another William Bache in Warwichshire, but he was born there/another occupation. The Wm. listed as being born in Mylor was unmarried.

I do have a copy of his birth certificate. I wasn't really aware of how probate works. It appears that if wherever someone made their will originally, that is where it is proved. I believe I'd inquire at Truro, Cornwall if he made a will when he was young. I read that it was more customary at that time for people to make out their wills when they were older, and even when they were contemplating death. If that were the case, then I might search in Birmingham and Chester? If he died intestate, and there were other records regarding his estate, they might be in Chester? If anyone has any other advice I appreciate it. You have been most prompt and helpful!

Additional information: William Bache became an engineer, and that was his occupation when he died. Thanks!

Wills are not proved in the place were they are made. They are usually proved in the area were someone dies unless the person owns property elsewhere and then they may be proved elsewhere.

He doesn't appear in the Lancashire wills index online that I can see. At 35 years old it may have been a sudden death and he had no time to make a will. Many people did not make wills. I think you need to get the death certificate which will give a cause of death and may give some idea any family present when he died.

Did his father leave a will? If he did is William mentioned in it?

You say you have a copy of his birth certificate. Civil registration did not begin until 1837. Is the certificate something issued by the Quakers?

I do have a copy of his birth certificate.

I believe by 'Birth Certificate' you mean his baptism certificate? What were his parents' names and the baptism date?

Cornwall has records on the Online Parish Clerks site there is an index of wills but there are no Baches on it. Is this the baptism for William?

http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/se ... &id=815201

Is this his marriage?

http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/se ... &id=439015


Blue

Baptism?
Forenames: William
Surname: BACHE
Gender: M
Relationship: Son
Date: 29 Oct 1810
Parish: Perranarworthal
County: Cornwall
Father's forenames: William
Father's surname: BACHE
Mother's forenames: Betsey
Mother's surname:-
Record source: Cornwall Baptisms
Data provider: Cornwall Family History Society

He was 35 when he died so born about 1820.

He was born in 1817 there's a birth record image on Ancestry.

Blue

Hi Meloralee,
Can you please post the census summary page reference for your sighting of William in 1851?
It will be in the format: HO107 - Piece: ??? - Folio: ??? - Page: ??.

Hi DS

The information is all on a tree on Ancestry:-

1851

H0107 Piece: 2054 Folio: 420 Page: 14


Blue

Hi,

'Blue' is correct re the citation for what I read in the 1851 census.

Re birth certificate, a copy of the original is also available to view on Ancestry.com. William's parents are John Bache and Ann (Stark). I suppose we can call it a birth record, but it is the same as a birth certificate, and was witnessed by people in the Quaker faith. Because Quakers refused to take an oath to the Church of England, or pay tithes, they were excluded in many ways from the parishes. Recording birth records was done by the Quaker church. Of William's siblings, all that remained in England married within the faith. Those that emmigrated married outside of the Quaker faith. If my information source is correct, I believe that members of the Quaker faith were disfellowshipped for marrying outside of the faith, up until a later period of time.

The citations mentioned for William Bache's baptism, and later his marriage to Ms. Visick are for my ancestor’s cousin (father: Joseph Bache), who was a few years older than him. I have reviewed those. My ancestor's brother, the William Bache that I refer to, would have been 14 years old when he married Ms. Visick, in a Protestant church, and the marriage document is not marked where they were given the option to state that the parties were married 'with consent' (i.e. were underage so had to get parental consent). The cousin and his wife went on to immigrate into Australia, and had several children there, of which fact there is plenty of documentation.

Regarding the 1851 census --- perhaps it was not the William Bache related to me, but the facts of birthplace and occupation certainly agree. His birth date seems a few years off. I know that in the 1841 censuses, re ages of people, they rounded off numbers upwards to the nearest 5, so on that census William and his older sister appear to be the same age. I take a grain of salt with these.

If William is on another census in 1851 I'd love to see it! Perhaps I should seek for records of his membership in the Birmingham area Quaker relicious community?

I really appreciate everyone's help so far. You all are on the ball! This is not an easy task from across the pond!

Re checking William Bache's father's will, I am ordering that. His father died in 1861, seven yers after William died; however, if William had children, perhaps his father mentioned them in his will. Great idea!

Between ordering international cashier's check, and the fees, it's expensive to order probate records from the UK to the USA, so I am trying to get several names together and place one order.

I know that in the 1841 censuses, re ages of people, they rounded off numbers upwards to the nearest 5

Just a minor point... Ages of people over the age of 15 were to be rounded down to the next age divisible by 5. So 29 would become 25 and 34 would become 30, etc. To confuse matters the 'rule' was often ignored and these ages were not corrected by the enumerator. Children aged 15 and less were to be recorded with their actual age.

Great! Thanks for clarifying that. I checked out a library book that was about the censuses in England. It was a bit dated, but helpful. I'll have to see if I can find something more current.

A copy of a will after 1858 costs £6. This website explains all about ordering them

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/probat ... ants-wills

Do not order them from any third party as they charge more!

meloralee wrote:Great! Thanks for clarifying that. I checked out a library book that was about the censuses in England. It was a bit dated, but helpful. I'll have to see if I can find something more current.

I know that Findmypast provides quite a lot of information about each census including a list of pages known to be missing from each one.
You don't have to subscribe or buy credits to access that info. Just go to the site http://www.findmypast.co.uk , select Search records, then select Census. Land and Surveys. A drop-down menus of census years will appear. Select any census and without entering any data simply scroll down the page.

I would assume that Ancestry has a similar facility.