Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

i am hoping someone may be able to shed some light on this matter, this has been going on now most of my adult life.
my grandad william john kidd was born 20.07.04 i believe in liverpool (west derby) i have found him on the 1911 census living with mother ellen green and stepfather robert sweet green at creswick st, liverpool. now i know from family stories that my grandads mom died when he was young and he was then brought up by the greens, robert later married maud robertson in 1926 and i did get to briefly know their son harold. robert sweet green ran pubs. on my grandads marriage certificate it states his fathers name was william kidd. i think the 1911 census saying ellen green (wife) and william green (stepson) to robert sweet green is definitley them! but my grandads name was william john kidd, not green, prehaps this was to look like they were married.
i am confused as i cannot find a marriage for ellen/robert and i cant find a death for a ellen green. i cannot find out what ever happened to my grandads birth dad - william kidd. in 1911 ellen was 26 years old, william john was 6 years old. so was it unlikely that she had married the birth dad so young, had a child and then remarried. this is frustrating me and i would so appreciate some help here on tracing my grandads birth parents.

Hi Lisa, welcome to the forum
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/

Lancs bmd has a marriage in 1907, Jun q
KIDD Ellen
GREEN Robert
West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended
Liverpool REG_WD/239/12

Unfortunately it is Register Office or Registrar attended, so we won't know the church to do a lookup for you.
You would need to order the marriage certificate which may tell you more about Ellen and if she was a widow. It will also give her father's details

you can order it from
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

will have a bit more of a hunt around for you

Simone x

This is probably William John's birth registration

William John Kidd
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1904
Registration district: West Derby
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 555

If you get this certificate, it will tell you his parents details including mother's maiden name.

Simone x

Hi and welcome to the forum.

It would be helpful if you could give the reference for that census so that we could see it, how many years do they state they were married - not applicable since Simone appears to have found the marriage.

What you really need is the birth certificate for William John Kidd Q3 1904 W. Derby 8b 555. Using this reference you can order it online at http://www.gro.gov.uk and it will give you his mother's maiden name, together with his father's name, if Ellen registered it.

Hi Mary

Here is the census
RG14; Piece: 22524;
Robert Sweet Green 26 barman
Ellen Green 26
William John Green 6 stepson
married 3 years... (states 1 child, but crossed out)
all born Liverpool

Simone x

Thanks, I did get it later but was looking for the stepson with surname Kidd.

Definitely the way forward is with the birth certificate, see what the mother actually put on it.

RE:

Now I know from family stories that my grandad's mom died when he was young and he was then brought up by the Greens. Robert later married Maud Robertson in 1926

The only Liverpool death between 1911 and 1926 is this one...
Death: GREEN, Ellen
Registration district: Liverpool
Year of registration: 1922; Sept Quarter.
Age at death: 38
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 39.

Need William's birth cert but in the meantime...
Assuming first that William was legitimate I checked for male Kidd deaths with a YoB to match Ellen's and up to 5 years older from 1901 to 1907 when she married Robert Green.
Death: KIDD, Thomas Edward
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1905 / Jun qtr
Age at death: 25
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 323.

1901:
KIDD, Thomas - Head - 22 - House Painter - Liverpool.
KIDD, Ellen - Wife - 21 - Liverpool.
Address: 24 Laith Street, Everton, Lancashire.
RG13 - Piece: 3485 - Folio: 52 - Page: 48
[Her age is out by 5 years and she would have been too young to marry. 21 sounds more respectable than 15 or 16]

Marriage a couple of months before William is born when Ellen would have been 19?
KIDD, Thomas Edward married DOBSON, Ellen [confirmed via LancsBMD per MaryA's following post]
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1904 / Jun qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 972

Births Jun 1885: Dobson, Ellen - W. Derby - 8b - 276.

It is possible that if Thomas Kidd was William's father and with his dying when the boy was only 1 year old and the mother remarrying in 1907 he may have been mistaken over his father's name.

Of course all the above is pure supposition. I just got carried away, but not by the men in white coats!

EDIT to confirm Kidd/Dobson marriage.

LancsBMD does confirm that Thomas Kidd did marry Ellen Dobson, however it was in either West Derby, Register Office or Registrar Attended, so possibly an RC church but not one that appears online.

Oh my days!! U guys are great. I appreciate this so much. I will order my grandads birth certificate asap and let you know. Family members in the past have mentioned ellen dobson but purely from searching online. I am so curious why my great grandad "william kidd" marked as deceased on my grandads marriage cert in 1926 and his mother ellen too died quiet early. I am so excited to get past my grandad and follow the tree in liverpool. My great grandad is listed as a journeyman on my grandads marriage cert. My grandad moved down to the midlands when he married and thats where we all are now. I will keep u updated as soon as i hear. Again so glad i got intouch! lisa x

Hi Lisa,
Pleased to have been of some help. Hope your search goes forward [or rather backwards!] with success.

Hi there!
i have received my grandads birth cert 1904, indeed his parents were thomas edward kidd and mary ellen kidd (dobson) i was originally searching for a william kidd as my great grandad as this was the name stated on his marriage cert! I also have the re-marriage for ellen to robert green, in 1907, she is listed as a widower at 22 years of age and her father is john dobson. this has all been through the help of you guys. i will now try and get her birth cert and thomas edward kidd's death cert has i am interested in why he died so young. many thanks

Good stuff! Always glad to hear of progress!

Thanks Lisa for updates.
So sad about Thos Edwd died aged 25yrs 2nd qtr 1905 W Dby.
Mary Ellen widowed so young and the little bloke never knowing his Dad.