Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

We have now decided to open a new topic in respect of the Johnson family tree that became part of the "Kirwin/McDonough nee Lacey/LOOK UP" topic posted by Gwen. The reason being that the "Lacey" aspect lead to "Finnan" who was my wife's father's family. Johnson is the nee part of Hilda Primrose Finnan who was my wife's mum. With information that has so far been uncovered by all contributors on the L&SWLFH site it is felt that a separate forum topic is now appropriate.

Hilda Primrose Johnson was born 19/04/1910 to John Johnson born 23/02/1870 and Phoebe Abigail Johnson nee Colyer born 17/06/1873. They were married 10/08/1890. The 1911 census for 58 Morville Street Toxteth Park Liverpool shows:
John Johnston (head) 40
Phebe Johnston (wife) 38
Phebe Johnston (d'tr) 20
Mary Ellen Johnston (d'tr) 18
Henriette Johnston (d'tr) 16
Margrette Johnston (d'tr) 11
Lena Johnston (d'tr) 7
Eva Johnston (d'tr) 4
Hildia Johnston (d'tr) 11/12
Henry Heaney (lodger) 21

Margaret's parents were Ephraim Johnson born 1817 and Jane Johnson nee Laverty born 1822 both in Ireland.
The 1871 census for 22 Robertson Street Toxteh Park Liverpool shows:
Ephraim Johnson (head) 56 born Ireland
Jane Johnson (wife) 50 born Ireland
John Johnson (son) 28 born Ireland 1843
Margaret Johnson (d'tr) 21 born Liverpool 1850
Charles Johnson (son) 19 born Liverpool 1852
Elizabeth Johnson (d'tr) 14 born Liverpool 1857
John Johnson (*grandson*) 1 born Liverpool 1870

The 1881 census for 16 Gaskell Street Toxteth Park Liverpool shows:
Ephraim Johnson (head) 64
Jane Johnson (wife) 59
Margaret Johnson (d'tr u/m) 31
John Johnson (*son*) 11

*John Johnson's* birth certificate (Liverpool-8b-174) shows he was born to Margaret Johnson and a currently unknown father. It is this "unknown" father and his family tree that we are endeavouring to find!

On the marraige certificate for John and Phoebe Johnson (nee Colyer) Ephraim Johnson was named as John's father when in fact he was his grandfather. John Johnson born Ireland 1843 was in fact John's father.

If anyone on the forum is either related to any of the Johnson's mentioned in the 1871 census or knows of anyone who knows the "family" please contact the author of this topic.

Best Regards
Allan

Hi Allan,
Good idea to start a new thread. However in respect of:

On the marriage certificate for John and Phoebe Johnson (nee Colyer) Ephraim Johnson was named as John's father when in fact he was his grandfather. John Johnson born Ireland 1843 was in fact John's father.

With respect, there would appear to be no evidence to suggest that John born 1870 is the son of brother and sister John and Margaret, born 1843 and 1850 respectively.

It is quite possible, however 'distasteful', that when John bn 1870 married naming Ephraim, his grandfather, as his father, he may well have been correct. That unfortunate circumstance still happens today. Putting it simply, because the father's name is absent from the birth cert one cannot make any assumptions. The trail stops at his birth.

allanpshepherd123 wrote: Margaret's parents were Ephraim Johnson born 1817 and Jane Johnson nee Laverty born 1822 both in Ireland.
The 1871 census for 22 Robertson Street Toxteh Park Liverpool shows:
Ephraim Johnson (head) 56 born Ireland
Jane Johnson (wife) 50 born Ireland
John Johnson (son) 28 born Ireland 1843
Margaret Johnson (d'tr) 21 born Liverpool 1850
Charles Johnson (son) 19 born Liverpool 1852
Elizabeth Johnson (d'tr) 14 born Liverpool 1857
John Johnson (*grandson*) 1 born Liverpool 1870

The 1881 census for 16 Gaskell Street Toxteth Park Liverpool shows:
Ephraim Johnson (head) 64
Jane Johnson (wife) 59
Margaret Johnson (d'tr u/m) 31
John Johnson (*son*) 11

*John Johnson's* birth certificate (Liverpool-8b-174) shows he was born to Margaret Johnson and a currently unknown father. It is this "unknown" father and his family tree that we are endeavouring to find!

On the marraige certificate for John and Phoebe Johnson (nee Colyer) Ephraim Johnson was named as John's father when in fact he was his grandfather. John Johnson born Ireland 1843 was in fact John's father.

If anyone on the forum is either related to any of the Johnson's mentioned in the 1871 census or knows of anyone who knows the "family" please contact the author of this topic.

Best Regards
Allan

Hi Allan.. are you saying you think John Johnson, age 28 born Ireland on the 1871 census is his father? Isn't he Margaret's brother?

here they are in 1861
RG 9; Piece: 2733; Folio: 68; Page: 18
Ephram Johnson 42 labourer, b Ireland
Jane Johnson 39 b ireland
John Johnson 19 labourer b Ireland
Charles Johnson 10 b Ireland
Magaret Jane Johnson 12 b Liverpool
Ephram Johnson 3 b Liverpool
Elisabeth Johnson 6 b Liverpool
William Johnson 1 b Liverpool

Simone x

he may have named Ephraim as his father as he was the one who brought him up so to speak, and rather than put nothing, he named him as father

Hello dickiesam and simone

Apologies for the typing error (realised after submitting) that indicates that John born 1870 is the son of John born 1843 and Margaret born 1850, this was not my intention but I do take on board what was said about Ephraim the grandfather being named on the marraige certificate of John and Phoebe as his father?? Yes, John and Margaret are brother and sister.

Interesting information from the 1861 details shows Ephram aged 3 born Liverpool is not on the 1871 census (possibly died) and Charles 10 is said to be born in Ireland when the 1871 said Liverpool Lancashire? Would seem strange to have Margaret Jane in Liverpool then Charles in Ireland and then Ephram (junior) in Liverpool. Also William aged 1 born Liverpool is not on the 1871 either.

Best Regards
Allan

Re the missing Ephraim in 1871... This would be his birth:
Birth: JOHNSON, Ephraim
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1857 / Dec qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 236

And probable death:
JOHNSON, Ephraim
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1864 / Mar qtr
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 358.
Unfortunately age at death was not recorded until later in the 1870s, but this is the only such named death in that decade.

With regard to Charles being stated as being born in Ireland in the census, that was probably an error on the part of his father Ephraim who completed the household form. It is also possible the enumerator made a mistake when transcribing from the Household Form to the Census Summary sheet which is what you see on screen. Such errors happened surprisingly frequently.

This could be his birth, perhaps there's a baptism cert out there waiting to be found?
JOHNSON, Charles
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1851 / Jun qtr
Volume no: 20; Page no: 1193.

It is unlikely that the name of an illegitimate child's father at this time can be found. Unless

1. There is a clue in the child's name such as a surname as the middle name. Even then this is supposition rather than evidence.
2. A father is named at the child's baptism. This is more likely in areas were all the parishioners were known to the priest or vicar
3. There is a bastardity bond applied for and the father is named. There are many of these at Lancashire Record Office
4. Application was made through the local court for payment from the father. These are often reported in the press under police courts. (I have one of these in 1876 in my family reported as held at the Police court.)
5.The father names the child in his will under the phrase of my natural child or even my reputed son
6. The mother marries soon, within months, after the child's birth and the child is always listed as the husband's child. If it's not his child he'll list it as a step child. The likelihood in this case was that the couple were unable to marry before the child's birth perhaps because one party wasn't 21 or because of different religions but marry as soon as they can when any obstacles have been removed.

Without any of the above, and others may think of any possibilities, you have no evidence or proof of who the father is and so the trail, as Dickie says, stops with the child.

My grandmother had an illegitimate child, this was always known about. Over the year's I have met a number of the cousins of this child noone knows who his father is and I doubt we'll ever know. We just have to accept that my grandmother took the secret to her grave.

Pretty accurate answers from our crew there Allan, I am sorry to say that I have to agree with them that a trail stops with a blank space in the birth certificate. But there is now a list of items for you to check and see if you get any result from those searches.

Hilary, that was such a comprehensive response that I will post a copy of it on our "For Posterity" Board then it can be referred to in the future.

Hello MaryA

Everyone that has contributed to all of my postings have been most helpful and very informative. For that I thank all of the crew concerned.

In the meantime I will work on all the new relevant information, visit my local library and endeavour to "dig" so to speak into the family tree of my wife's wonderful mum Hilda.

Best Regards
Allan

I'm glad you still have a few lines of enquiry open to you, although Bastardy Bonds etc. may well only be available at the Lancashire RO, not the local library, read the couple of additional comments I made about searching for them and also the link here http://forum.liverpool-genealogy.org.uk ... 16&t=12131

Good luck and let us know if you come across anything relevant.

From the Liverpool Catholic baptisms on Ancestry


Sarah Ann Johnson
Birth Date: 28 Mar 1849
Baptism Date: 12 Nov 1849
Parish: St Patrick
Father's Name: Ephraim Johnson
Mother's Name: Jane Laverty
annotation made saying 'private & conditional'
godmother- Mary Purcell


Eliza Johnston
Birth Date: 8 Dec 1853
Baptism Date: 7 Jan 1854
Parish: St Patrick
Father's Name:Ephram Johnston
Mother's Name: Jane Raffarty
Godparents, Daniel Marlow & Bridget Nelson

and interestingly a possible baptism for Charles


Charles Johnstone
Birth Date: 15 May 1851
Baptism Date: 7 Jul 1851
Parish: St Patrick
Father's Name: Ephrem Johnstone
Mother's Name: Jane Oneil

wouldn't be the first time we've encountered charnges in surnames would it

simone x

1851 census
HO107; Piece: 2186; Folio: 346; Page: 18
at 52 Wright St, Toxteth Park
Ephram Johnson 35 labourer b Ireland
Jane Johnson 30 b Ireland
John Johnson 9 b Ireland
Margaret Johnson 2 b Toxteth Park
Jane Johnson 38,visitor, unmarried, b Ireland


Simone x

Elizabeth Johnson 21, Domestic Servant, 29 Gaskill Street
Marriage Date: 25 Dec 1877
Parish: Toxteth St Matthew
Spouse's Name: Stephen Kenyon, Rivetter, 12 Star Street
Father's Name: Ephraim Johnson, Labourer
Spouse Father's Name: William Kenyon, Carter
witnessed Robert and Ellen Kenyon




Charles Johnson 23 labourer, Henderson Street
Marriage Date: 2 May 1875
Parish: Toxteth St Michael
Spouse's Name: Emma Wood, Hill Street
Father's Name: Ephraim Johnson, Porter
Spouse Father's Name William Wood, shipwright
witnesses William Thompson & Martha Yates



John Johnson 21, rivetter, 17 Beamish st
Marriage Date: 10 Aug 1890
Parish:Toxteth St Michael
Spouse's Name: Phoebe Colyer, 18, 17 Beamish St
Father's Name: Ephraim Johnson, labourer
Spouse Father's Name: Henry Thomas Colyer, Warfinger
witnesses Henry T Colyer & Mirian Colyer Mills

Wonder if Sarah Ann could be Margaret?

simone wrote:Wonder if Sarah Ann could be Margaret?

I think this is why Sarah Ann was baptised 'privately'.... Perhaps the baby was not expected to live?

Deaths Dec 1849: Johnson, Sarah Ann - W.Derby - 20 - 778.

Ahh good find Brian.. missed that one

Hello simone

You all continue to amaze me with the flow of information that is greatly appreciated.

The information you gave below is from the marraige certificate of John and Pheobe (Hilda's parents) that I have which identified Ephraim as his father when in fact his father is currently unknown.

John Johnson 21, rivetter, 17 Beamish st
Marriage Date: 10 Aug 1890
Parish:Toxteth St Michael
Spouse's Name: Phoebe Colyer, 18, 17 Beamish St
Father's Name: Ephraim Johnson, labourer
Spouse Father's Name: Henry Thomas Colyer, Warfinger
witnesses Henry T Colyer & Mirian Colyer Mills

Sarah Ann Johnson was identified by dickiesam in the "Kirwin/McDonough nee Lacey/LOOK UP" topic as:

One of those sad finds we come across....
Birth: JOHNSON, Sarah Ann
Registration district:West Derby
Year of registration: 1849 / Jun qtr
Volume no:20; Page no: 1114

Death: JOHNSON, Sarah Ann
Registration district: West Derby
Year of registration: 1849 / Dec qtr
Volume no: 20; Page no: 778

The 'private and conditionate' baptism and death shortly after makes me think the parents knew the infant was about to die.

As an educated guest who is the Jane Johnson 38, visitor, unmarried, b Ireland mentioned in the 1851 census and why specifically unmarried? Is she Ephram's older sister?

Is Jane Laverty, Raffarty (sounds similar) and Oneil the same person?

Is there latitude with some of the dates for his children and the spelling of Ephraim (Ephram, Ephrem and Johnson (Johnston and Johnstone)?

Best Regards
Allan

As an educated guest who is the Jane Johnson 38, visitor, unmarried, b Ireland mentioned in the 1851 census and why specifically unmarried? Is she Ephram's older sister?

Impossible to decide at this stage if Jane is a blood relative of Ephraim. The column with 'visitor' written in is headed 'Relationship to Head of Household'. If she was his sister it would normally have had 'sister' instead of 'visitor'. Similarly, it is impossible to even guess as to why she is s spinster. There were, as there is today, a lot of unmarried woman and men in their 30s and older.

With regard to spelling of names... With the relatively low level of literacy at that time the spelling of names depended on what the listener 'heard'. Surprisingly few people knew the precise spelling of their names. I read some while ago that many census forms from about the mid 1800s to the turn of the century were probably completed by children because they could read and write whereas their parents could not.

There was a parallel situation with regard to age. People rarely knew the exact year of their birth and ages on a census form was often a 'best guess'.

Margaret Jane Johnstone, Servant, 16 Garston Street
Birth Year: abt 1853
Age: 30
Marriage Date: 27 Oct 1883
Parish:Toxteth St Matthew
Spouse's Name: Henry Donakey, Mariner
Father's Name: Ephraim Johnstone, Porter
Spouse Father's Name: William Donakey, Plasterer, 16 Mann Street
witnesses John & Elizabeth Southern


Re Jane O'Neil possibly be Jane Laverty/Rafferty.. it wouldn't be the first time we have had Irish families using another name... the crew will remember the Lennons using their 'official' name of Lennon on all legal regsitrations but using the name of Quinn on the census.... there was also another Irish family using an alias not so long ago on here, but can't remember who they were now

Hello simone

Cannot use expletives on a public forum but you are amazing coming up with this piece of information. The team on L+SWLFHS are simply the best.

Many thanks as ever.

Best Regards
Allan