Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'd be grateful if anybody could help me break down my brick wall. My grandfather was John Murphy who married Margaret Ryan in August 1898 at All Souls Church. He says his age is 23 and his father was John Murphy. Both were carters. In the 1901 Census, John says he was 25 - and in the 1911 that he was 35, therefore born 1875. I know they lived in the Burlington St area when they married. I cannot track his birth or baptism down so don't know his mother. I cannot even narrow down who the family were in 1881, although in 1891 there are possibles for father and son in a boarding house in Cazneau St. If anybody comes across a baptism during 1875 where the father is John and he is a carter, or if they could give me some idea how I can progress this family backwards, I would be so pleased to hear from them. As I don't live in Liverpool now, I cannot easily get through to research myself. Very many thanks. Freda

For the benefit of those without acccess to the marriage certificate
7 August, 1898 All Souls
John Murphy of 12 Creer Street - father John Murphy
Margaret Ryan of 14 Creer Street - father John Ryan
Witnesses Joanne Whelan 5c 2h Lace Street and Alicia Burns 253 Burlington Street

Baptisms of some of the children
St Anthony's
Born 29 April baptised 7 May 1898
John Thomas Murphy
Godmother Maria Joanna Burke.

St Joseph's
Born 24 October baptised 4 November 1900
Thomas Murphy
Godparents Joanne Dowling and Brigida Jones
Address 6 in 4 Prince Edwin Street

5 March/13 March 1904
Maria Catherine Murphy
Godparents Joannes Kearney and Maria Catherine Hamil
Address 6c 6h Great Richmond Street

22 October/25 October 1906
William Murphy
Godmother Elizabeth Wilson
Address 8 Thistle Terrace

All with parents John and Margaret Murphy (nee Ryan)
The addresses might prove useful as they seem to have continued around the St Martin area, it's quite likely that the boarders you found in Cazneau Street are the correct ones.

Could you give the details from the 1901 census to ensure that we have the correct family, including the references.

Judging by the pre-census baptisms MaryA posted, this looks like the Murphy family in 1901.
RG13 - Piece: 3481 - Folio: - 179 - Page: 26.
Address: 6 H in 4 Crt, Prince Edwin Street, Everton.

MURPHY, John - Head - Married - 25 - Carter (quay & city) - Liverpool.
MURPHY, Margaret - Wife - 22 - Fruit Hawker - Liverpool.
MURPHY, John T - Son - 3 - Liverpool
MURPHY, Thomas - Son - 0 (5 MOS) - 1900 - Liverpool.

MaryA wrote:For the benefit of those without acccess to the marriage certificate
7 August, 1898 All Souls
John Murphy of 12 Creer Street - father John Murphy
Margaret Ryan of 14 Creer Street - father John Ryan
Witnesses Joanne Whelan 5c 2h Lace Street and Alicia Burns 253 Burlington Street

Hi Mary A,
Could that home address be Greer Street? That the only near hit to Creer Street, which is as yet not found. And I can't locate any houses above #7.

Hi thank you to all who replied to me. These are all my family, but I already have all the information, including certificates. The problem I have is that I cannot identify my Murphy family prior to 1898. I have already traced the Ryan family and all families connected to them - it's just the Murphy line I'm stuck at. So sorry if I have confused everyone but what I would really like is any John Murphy born in the area around 1875 so I can identify his family in 1881 and then carry on back from there. My mum used to say he had a brother called Thomas and a sister called either Ellen or Mary...but unfortunately that isn't confirmed because there is no-one of that generation still living. Many thanks again. Freda

Hi

What about this family.. age a little out, but that's not so unusual as we know but he does have a brother Thomas
1881
RG11; Piece: 3612; Folio: 11; Page: 16
1 House 6 Court Ray St
John Murphy 40, Carter, Widow, b Liverpool
William Murphy 20 seaman,b Liverpool
John Murphy 9, b Liverpool
Thomas Murphy 5, b Liverpool
Kate Bernard 17 servant b Liverpool

There is also John Murphy b Bury, c 1841, aCarter, married to Jane. They have a number of kiddies but their son John is 11 so maybe a little too old. They are living at 36 Christopher Street, Kirkdake.
RG11; Piece: 3676; Folio: 47; Page: 32


There is another John Murphy, Carter, b c 1855Liverpool who is lodging at 121 St Anne Street, Model lodging House.. he states he is married, no wife with him though.. RG11; Piece: 3631; Folio: 81; Page: 36

Simone x

Yes DS, very possibly Greer Street rather than Creer, you know what their handwriting is like and it wasn't a streetname I knew so guessed

Freda, I suspected you might have a lot of the information provided but anybody wishing to help search for the information you want, needs as many details as possible to see the full picture, for example names of witnesses, godparents and addresses could give clues.

what I would really like is any John Murphy born in the area around 1875 so I can identify his family in 1881 and then carry on back from there.

Freda,
Searching the 1881 for a John Murphy bn 'Liverpool' area abt 1875 +/- 3 years threw up about 50 hits. Assuming his father John was still alive and including another John in the household the search gave 21 hits.

That particular census is free to search on all sites as far as I am aware because it was donated by the CLDS. The 'Liverpool area' includes birth registrations in Liverpool, West Derby, Toxteth Park and I would include even Prescot in a search because although the registration was supposed to be at the nearest Registrar's Office, that didn't always happen.

what I would really like is any John Murphy born in the area around 1875 so I can identify his family in 1881 and then carry on back from there.

Looking at it from another angle - religion. John married in an RC church so checking for a baptism "in the area" for a John, with a father John, also produces about 20 entries +/- 3 years either side of 1875 - churches including St Francis Xavier, St Anthony's, All Souls being probably the nearest to the area but also others nearby.

Thanks to all - I am grateful for all comments. The family were definitely all RC right up until my own generation, and whilst I appreciate marriages could take place in a CofE church because of costs in an RC church back then, I always feel that because religion was so important, the children would almost certainly be baptised RC. I know there is no hard and fast rule, so I really need to get a trip in to Liverpool for a few days to go through every parish baptism record again!!!!

I did look at the Ray St family in 1881 Simone - for a long time thought it was mine, but I think the age of the son John at 9 is way out when it should be 15 or 16!!! Another reason for thinking this was maybe mine was that my grandparents named one of their children William.....and I know for a fact there are no Williams in my Ryan/Moran/Caslin lines so assumed it came from the Murphy side. Also, I researched the family in Kirkdale where births took place in Bury....not mine!!!!

I know John Snr was still alive in 1898 because on the marriage cert it states father being John Murphy, Carter....but for my grandmother it stated father John Ryan, Deceased (he died a few months before they married). I think if John Snr had been dead, it would have said it on the cert.

I will keep battling on - but will be amazed if this particular brick wall will ever be breached!!!! Thank you all again. Freda

Freda wrote: I did look at the Ray St family in 1881 Simone - for a long time thought it was mine, but I think the age of the son John at 9 is way out when it should be 15 or 16!!!
Freda

Hi Freda.. I thought he was born c 1875, so that would make him 6ish in 1881 surely

Simone x

Oh my goodness Simone - you're absolutely right!!!! I'm either getting tired or old!!!! He was supposed to be 15 or 16 in 1891... I may try and track this family further back once again to 1871 with having the son William and maybe find them with mum! Thank you again Freda

I know John Snr was still alive in 1898 because on the marriage cert it states father being John Murphy, Carter....but for my grandmother it stated father John Ryan, Deceased (he died a few months before they married). I think if John Snr had been dead, it would have said it on the cert.

Hi Freda,
Just a comment on the above. Whether or not a father was shown to be deceased on a marriage depended entirely on the Registrar asking the question... "Is your father dead or alive"? Sometimes the question wasn't asked. So the absence of the word 'Deceased' does not mean the father was definitely alive. I have 3 marriage certs where the father is not shown to be deceased but actually was as later searches proved.

I do accept that - my reasoning was that if he was dead, John would have said so seeing as Margaret said her dad was dead. I couldn't really see any reason why he wouldn't have said so when this was their marriage certificate that was being filled in by the registrar and they were both there!!! By the way, on their marriage, in All Souls record it states their addresses as Creer/Greer St...but on the actual certificate they both give Burlington Street as their home address - granddad John 253 and grandmother Margaret 21ct 9 house. I always found that really strange as well....why would the church record be different to the civil record? The joys of research! Freda

Hello, what Freda failed to mention is that the address given by her Grandfather Creer Street definitely existed. It was the address of Edward Burke and his wife Mary Burke (who I think was Needham before marriage). If Mary was Mary Needham it would make her the Aunt of a John Dowling. Both a Mary Burke and a John Dowling turn up as godparents to some of John and Margaret's children this seems more than a coincidence but I can't trace a blood link between the families to Murphy or Ryan. The address given by John in Burlington Street was the address of Patrick Burns and Alice Burns. Alice was a witness to the wedding and I think her maiden name was Booth while Patrick states he was a fireman on his marriage certificate which I think meant he went to sea and not he was a fire fighter. just hope this extra information can help to uncover something.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Your information is a great example of why we always ask for the full information to be given by anybody looking for help with a problem, even if a family connection can't be made, godparents are often close neighbours and good friends.

We have come across the occupation of fireman before, often meaning a stoker on a ship, so you are probably correct with that.