Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am so frustrated searching for my great grandparents’ marriage. I’ve searched hours on Ancestry, FamilySearch, and Lancashire BMD. Henry Hawkins, b.1843 L’pool, d.1894, parents William and Elizabeth. Spouse Mary Ellen Roberts, b. 1847/8 L’pool, d.1917. I know her maiden name as it’s listed on my grandmother’s b.cert. Children Mary Ellen (born 1871), Henry, Elizabeth, Maria, William, Jane, Sarah, John. How common was it in those days to live together without marriage? I’ve found marriage records for Henry’s parents and some of his siblings, so I assume they did ‘the right thing’ and married legally. I would be so grateful if anyone has any suggestions or can find something I’m overlooking.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

It certainly wasn't unknown for couples to be living "over the brush" for various reasons, one of which might be that one of them might have been married previously and wasn't legally able to marry. Or a child might have been on the way and perhaps beat them to it and afterwards they may not have got around to it.

Can you tell us which of the children do you have the birth certificate for with the maiden name on it and what is it dated, and please post details from the 1881 census so that we know we are looking for the right family.

Living 'over the brush' was relatively common especially for the working class. If a partner was already married divorce would almost certainly be out of the question due to cost and their religion could be major factor as well. I have 2 such in my line where the marriage didn't happen until their former spouses died over 25 years after the first marriage.

Can you confirm this is the Hawkins family in 1881 living at 26 Paley Street, Everton?
RG11 - Piece: 3669 - Folio: 71 - Page 25.

Is this Henry in 1871, unmarried and at home with his widowed father, and he is a sailor?
36 Rishton Street, Everton, Liverpool.
RG10 - Piece: 3819 - Folio: 85 - Page: 15.

Have you got the birth cert for this Mary Ellen Hawkins, the only such birth registered in 1871? She was born within 3 months of the census night for that year.

HAWKINS, Mary Ellen
Registration district: West Derby
Year/qtr of registration: 1871 / Apr-May-Jun
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 426.

Hi,

I have looked for the marriage but as yet unable to find it..

I agree with Mary A & DS, it was very common then as now, for many reasons..
desertion/unhappy marriage. Nothing changes really.

I have a couple in my tree, one very close family.

Lady born 1841 Neston Cheshire, married had 1 daughter that I know of born 1872 Cheshire

Her mother left pretty soon after her birth for L.pool with her daughter and lived with someone, by 1881 they had another family.

This couple did not marry until 1903. I have been told that the retirement pension came in about this time, no marriage cert, no pension..

I am not sure how true this is, I am sure someone here will know.


Gray

dickiesam wrote:the only such birth registered in 1871?
HAWKINS, Mary Ellen

I think this birth might be the baptism in St Anne (RC church), born 10 May, 1871 baptised 3 February 1872
Maria Helena Hawkins child of Maria Anne Hawkins .....

hi

lookslike on the latest census they are in 39 Olivia Street Bootle
William Hawkins 31 head warehouse porter
Mary Ellen 62 mother widow laundress
Maria Hawkins 28 daughter laundress
John Edward Hawkins 22 son warehouseman
Robert Hawkins 8 nephew

it states, although crossed out, that Mary Ellen married 40 years, 11 children, 6 living, 5 died

John Edward married Catherine Lawson in 1918, St John Bootle, he is 29, a boilermaket, 39 Olivia Street, father Henry (deceased) a seaman... she is 26 a spinster, 7 Olivia Street, father Gavin Lawson a Boilermaker. witnesses John Lawson and Mary Ann Beevers

Maria marries in 1911 from 49 Olivia Street to Willaim Thomas Watling, father Henry deceased a labourer.
Sarah marries in 1908 from 21 Olivia Street to James Robinson, father Henry Hawkins deceased a Still-man

Simone x

1881
RG11; Piece: 3669; Folio: 71; Page: 25
as posted by DS earlier at Paley Street
Henry Hawkins 37 chemical labourer
Mary E. Hawkins 32
Henry Hawkins 8
Elizabeth Hawkins 5
Maira Hawkins 2
William Hawkins


1891 census
RG12; Piece: 2963; Folio: 16; Page: 26
7 Mount Pleasant Square
Mary E Hankins 42 married head b Liverpool
Henry Hankins 18
Eliza Hankins 15
Wm Hankins 10
Jane Hankins 6/12- could be age 6
Sarah Hawkins 4
Jno E Hawkins 2


correction to Ancestry for name

also in 1891
RG12; Piece: 2981; Folio: 45; Page: 7
in West Derby Union Workhouse is a Henry Hawkinsb c 1844, dock labourer, married, born Liverpool

linwood247 wrote:Children Mary Ellen (born 1871), Henry, Elizabeth, Maria, William, Jane, Sarah, John.

I wish we had an answer to my question about which of the children's birth certificates has been obtained.

The only date given is for Mary Ellen but this doesn't match the censuses you have found Simone - they seem to confirm that Mary Ellen was born approx 1879. If Henry was the oldest b approx 1872, then Mary Ellen is giving the year of her marriage as just before this - to save face?

Anybody see any baptisms? doesn't appear to be any online, could it be a clue if none of them were baptised?

MaryA wrote:

dickiesam wrote:the only such birth registered in 1871?
HAWKINS, Mary Ellen

I think this birth might be the baptism in St Anne (RC church), born 10 May, 1871 baptised 3 February 1872
Maria Helena Hawkins child of Maria Anne Hawkins .....

This appears to be the Maira in the 1881....

HAWKINS, Maria
Registration district: West Derby
Year/qtr of registration: 1878 / Oct-Nov-Dec
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 459.

The child alleged to have been born in 1871 and not in the 1881 census?
Death: HAWKINS, Mary Ellen
Registration district: West Derby
Year/qtr of registration: 1872 / Apr-May-Jun
Age at death: 1
Volume no: 8B; Page no: 355

I wonder how linwood247 has arrived at William and Elizabeth as Henry's parents... there are a couple more candidates on the census, one lodging with the Jones family in 1871, b c 1843 RG10; Piece: 3810; Folio: 62; Page: 11


I'm a bit confused at the mo over this family
at 11 Hartrup St in 1881

RG11; Piece: 3669; Folio: 125; Page: 36
Sarah Hawkins 38 married Mariners wife
Henry Hawkins 10
Frederick Hawkins 8

both these children have been baptised together in 1874, 26 April
Henry b 21 March 1870
Frederick b 19 Feb 1872 (looks like reg under spelling Hawkens, Mar q 1872)
but dad's occupation is Sailmaker

I thought that, although Sarah states she is married in 1881, I had found a possible death for her hubby in 1872 age 29, Jun q. Why not say she is a widow on census, no embarrasment there.

Now I find a marriage in 1893 for Abel Richard Hawkins age 26, father Henry a Sailmaker, but I can't find anything for this Abel Richard before marriage:(

My original thinking was that maybe Henry had married Sarah and left her for Mary but can't even see a marriage for Henry to Sarah
probably a total red herring but driving me crazy

Simone x

Hi, I don't have Ancestry anymore to put this to the test and play around with it.

The only marriage I can find in the time frame and for:

Henry Hawkins and a Mary Ellen is:

FreeBMD (this marr is not on LancsBMD)

West Derby Dec 1885 8b 599
Henry Hawkins & Mary Ellen Glover


There are 2 possible births:
Mary Eleanor Glover L.pool March 1849 20 388
Mary Ellen Glover L.pool march 1850 20 376

There is a marr for a

Charles Roberts to a Mary Ellen Glover
Shrewsbury Shropshire Sept 1870 6a 1058

Then a birth for a Mary Ellen Roberts:
Roberts Mary Ellen Madeley shropshire March 1871 6a 686

Shropshire's not a million miles away from L.pool

This is all supposition, what if this is correct.. Mary Ellen comes back to L.pool for whatever reason and meets Henry Hawkins, they cannot marry as she is already married. They then find out Charles has died???
I have this in my tree a few times

Could someone with Ancestry play around with it..

Do you need some tablets for that headache Simone, I've just had some
Nice to see you!

Grayx

West Derby Dec 1885 8b 599
Henry Hawkins & Mary Ellen Glover

I don't think Henry and Mary Ellen actually married each other .

FreeBMD shows the following names for this entry:

Glover, Mary Ellen
Hawkins, Henry
Mutch, John Edward
Tadd, Eliza

LancsBMD has for 1885:
GLOVER, Mary E MUTCH, John E Everton, St. Peter
HAWKINS, Henry TADD, Eliza Everton, St. Peter

Alison x

Hi Alison..

Must be my age or the sun

Never mind.. thanks for checking!

Grayx

Gray wrote:Do you need some tablets for that headache Simone, I've just had some
Nice to see you!

Grayx

yes we'll share nice to see you too

There is the following marriage on LanOPC - could this be Mary Ellen's brother?

Marriage: 17 Mar 1880, St George, Everton, Lancashire, England
John Edwin Roberts, 29, Mariner, Bachelor of 12 Nicholson Street
Wilhelmina Deringer Prout,22, Spinster of 12 Nicholson Street
Groom's Father: Edwin James Roberts, Farmer
Bride's Father: James Prout, Mariner
Witness: E. J. Prout, Mary Ellen Hawkins

Alison

dickiesam wrote: Is this Henry in 1871, unmarried and at home with his widowed father, and he is a sailor?
36 Rishton Street, Everton, Liverpool.
RG10 - Piece: 3819 - Folio: 85 - Page: 15.

ok trying to unravel this

Henry with his father William on this census.. William is born in Birminghamc 1812 and is a Customs Officer and is so on previous census, when he is with wife Elizabeth born Wales...

found this family in 1861

RG 9; Piece: 2681; Folio: 5; Page: 5;William Roberts 51
William Roberts 51 master carter
Mary Roberts 50
John Roberts 12
Mary E Aston 18 daur
George Aston 15 son in law
Elizabeth Kelly servant

all born Liverpool... Mary E and George are actually step children of William...
William Roberts married Mary Aston in 1857 at Liverpool St Paul, as per Lancs BMD

then

Mary Ellen Aston married William Roberts in 1862 at St Mary's Edge Hill. William is a joiner and his dada is William a joiner.. but her dad is Samuel Aston...whose profession is listed as 'in the Customs House'

looks coincidental doesn't it

so need to find out about William Roberts.. did he die? or if this is Mary Ellen, did she leave him for Henry

also Samuel.. need to check back on him

hmmm plot thickens

Mary Ellen Aston married William Roberts in 1862 at St Mary's Edge Hill. William is a joiner and his dada is William a joiner.. but her dad is Samuel Aston...whose profession is listed as 'in the Customs House'

marriage between William Roberts and Mary Aston is on Ancestry.. she is listed as Spinster and her father as Edwrad Aston, a Gentleman

getting confused.. has Mary Ellen named a dad to save face.. but why such a specific occupation.. not your run of the mill is it

Hi Simone,

Have checked re Samuel Aston.

There is a baptism on the OPC site:

Baptisms: 30 Mar 1844 St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England
James Aston - Son of Samuel Aston & Ann
Abode: Walker St Low Hill
*** Occupation: Lauding Waiter **** NOTE
Baptised by: T Tattershall, Minister
Register: Baptisms 1830 - 1872, Page 59, Entry 470
Source: LDS Film 1656013

***I believe the occupation should read ' Landing waiter'.. my reasoning, my x5 g.father was a customs officer, I have seen him listed as: Landing waiter/waiter/Tide waiter/Officer/ Customs Officer/

I will stand corrected if wrong

Also:

Baptisms: 30 Sep 1842 St Augustine, Everton, Lancashire, England
Mary Ellen Aston - Daughter of Samuel Aston & Ann
Abode: Copperas Hill
Occupation: Draper
Baptised by: T Tattershall, Minister
Register: Baptisms 1830 - 1872, Page 52, Entry 416
Source: LDS Film 1656013

Not sure about this one, possibly Samuel had a change of career??? but both baptized at the same church..within 2 years


Also:

The marriage for William Roberts to Mary Aston is listed:

Marriage: 7 Mar 1857 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Roberts - Full Master Carter Widower of Nash Grove
Mary Aston - Full Spinster of Finch Street
Groom's Father: John Roberts, Sailor
Bride's Father: Edward Aston, Gentleman
Witness: George Aston; Sarah Ponsonby
Married by Licence by: J. H. Stafford Minister
Register: Marriages 1854 - 1858, Page 212, Entry 423
Source: LDS Film 1656375

I really need to get out more, if I'm wrong this time it's knitting for me:lol:


Grayx

Marriage: 7 Mar 1857 St Paul, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
William Roberts - Full Master Carter Widower of Nash Grove
Mary Aston - Full Spinster of Finch Street

If Mary Aston was a spinster had she been busy producing those 2 step-children listed in the 1861, Mary E Aston and George Aston, out-of-wedlock? If yes where are they in 1851?

Here she is in 1851:
ASTON, Mary - Spinster - 41 - 1810 - Teacher - Liverpool, Lancashire.
ASTON, George - Brother - Married - 27 - 1824 - Liverpool, Lancashire.
GIBSON, Ann - Servant - U/m - 17 - 1834 - Servant - Lancaster, Lancashire.
Address: 92 Finch Street, Liverpool
HO107 - Piece: 2184 - Folio: 257 - Page: 33.