Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Query: My interest is in learning the extent of any formal education my grandfather would have received prior to coming to the US. Were there any local schools in Ditton he would have attended during the time period 1890 - 1910 and are there records to confirm his attendance?

Details: John Herbert Radley (b. 1890 in Ditton of John Radley and Margaret Whitfield and emigrated to USA 1910) To the best of my knowledge John was the only Radley of this family to have left England. While he and his family members may have benefited in some ways from his immigration, we were separated from our ancestors.

I have gathered a lot of information, but these are just names and dates. So I am putting together a family book to give a better understanding of our roots.

Thank you in advance for your help. I will check the board every day so your response will not go unseen.

Elizabeth Radley, Brooklyn, NY USA

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The area of Ditton, which was under the registration district of Prescot, now seems to be incorporated in the area of Widnes and Halton. I have sent a message to the Chairman of the Widnes Group, Chris Leigh, who I hope will be able to offer some suggestions for you.

Meantime can you advise if I have discovered the correct family in the 1891 census since the mother's name doesn't seem to match your information.

Old Lane, Ditton, Lancashire
John Radley Head M 39 Alkali Labourer Garston, Lancashire
Harriet Wife M 30 Denbigh, Wales
Everybody else born Ditton, Lancashire
Maggie 10, Sarah 8, Annie 6, Edith 3, John 4 months,
Joseph Boarder Married 58 Blacksmith
Thomas " Single 26 Alkali Labourer
RG12; Piece: 3010; Folio: 70; Page: 63

I can't be sure but I wonder if the marriage is of John Radley Q4 1879 Prescot 8b 911, one of the spouse names is Harriet Hughes.

I found this christening for John Herbert with mother Harriet


Name:
John Herbert Radley
Gender:
Male
Birth Date:
abt 1890
Christening Date:
13 May 1890
Christening Place:
Ditton, Lancashire, England
Father's Name:
John Radley
Mother's name:
Harriet

Hi Elizabeth,
The only John Radley born in Lancashire in or abt 1890 in the 1891 census is the one in the family that MaryA found. And his mother appears to be Harriet Hughes.

There are five John Radley marriages in Lancashire between 1880 and 1900 but none to a Margaret Whitfield. Four are registered in Prescot, the nearest Registry Office to Ditton, and one in West Derby, Liverpool. I found twelve Margaret Whitfield marriages in the same period, including two in Prescot, but none to a Hadley.

I see from the 1901 census that his place of birth has been 'narrowed' to Hough Green, an area within the Ditton boundary. It can be seen here: http://streetmap.co.uk/grid/348300_386200_3
If you are looking for Hough Green on Google Earth, search for Hough Green, Merseyside. There were county boundary changes in the 1970s and it is no longer under Lancashire. The same applies for a Ditton search.

Hi Elizabeth
The Old Lane referred to in the census, equates I think, to modern day Hough Green Road. As for schools in the area, it depends on religion. The closest would have been the local C.of E. school, associated to St. Michaels Church. While if R.C. it would have been St. Mary's school. Associated with the local Church also confusing called St. Michaels. I will inquire if there are any records available.

Thanks for popping in Chris, hope you find some records.

Hi Elizabeth
Further to previous reply, the baptism of John Herbert Radley is in the C. of E. church at Ditton. So he would probably have gone to Ditton County C. of E. School, which was next to St. Michaels Church. The building is still there but is now a Social Club. Unfortunately we dont have access to the records.
chris

Thank you all for such prompty responses and great replies.

Mary A " Meantime can you advise if I have discovered the correct family in the 1891 census since the mother's name doesn't seem to match your information." This is my family. These are the parents and siblings of John Herbert Radley. His mother's name was Harriet Hughes. Harriet came from Denbighshire, Wales. Her father's name was William, but I have little more information on Harriet.

Hi Hilary -- Yes, that's the christening for my grandfather. I wish it had given the church, but assume it was at St. Michel's (Church of England and not the Catholic).

DS -- You gotta love it that all 5 were named JOHN. Makes keeping them straight a challenge.

ChrisL -- Thank you for the translation of Old Lane to Hough Green Road. I plan on visiting next spring/summer and will want to go to these places. As I stated above, probably not the Catholic church as we are protestants. Thank you for checking on the records, but I see that there is no access. Perhaps what I will search is what kind of education, if any, he would have received between the ages of 5 - 15. (1895 - 1905) Family story is he was a stable boy and wanted a better life. He succeeded as he was married with 4 children and a house of his own after the first 10 years in the US.

Thank you all for your posts. I enjoyed reading them and they were helpful.

Your American Cousin, Bets

Hi Bets,
RE:

This is my family. These are the parents and siblings of John Herbert Radley. His mother's name was Harriet Hughes. Harriet came from Denbighshire, Wales. Her father's name was William, but I have little more information on Harriet.

Have to ask.... Who is Margaret Whitfield and where does she fit into the picture?

Margaret Whitfield is the wife of John Radley who was born in Tarbock in 1811. Margaret was born in Woolton in 1811. They were married in Prescot in 1834. In 1861, I have them living in Ditton/Farnworth, and thereafter in Halewood beginning from 1871 until 1897. She is my great great grandmother.

Cupcake wrote:Margaret Whitfield is the wife of John Radley who was born in Tarbock in 1811.

Glad that is sorted out, I think we had got the idea from your original post that she was of the next generation.

In England by 1891 education was free (except in private schools and compulsory) prior to that many schools would have charged a few pennies for schooling. Your ancestor would have started school around the age of 5 years and remained at that school until he left at the age of 12 years which was then the school leaving age. It had been raised fron 11 years in 1899. He would have been taught the 3 Rs, reading writing and arithmetic and maybe other subjects as well depending on the teachers. The level of attainment would have depended not only on the school but on the pupil and their ability.

There is still a Ditton C of E School which you could try googling to see if it has a website with any history on it.

Thank you Hilary --

I appreciate the background on education. Last night I googled and found a website with "Education in England: a brief history" The citation is:
Gillard D (2011) Education in England: a brief history www.educationengland.org.uk/history

Haven't had a chance to read it, but it is the weekend coming up and I won't be running to work.

I googled and learned the address and contact information for the school, too. Here it is if anyone else ever needs it:
Spinney Avenue Church of England Voluntary Controlled Primary School
Spinney Avenue
Hough Green
Widnes
Cheshire
WA88LD
Phone: 0151 4244234
Fax: 0151 4202788
Headteacher: Mrs Carol Lawrenson
Diocese of Liverpool

I will send them a fax and see what I find out. Will report back.

Also, I read a story on the internet, "A Nolan Story of Widnes." It has stories about Widnes/Ditton in the late 1800s. I wonder if anyone has read this article/story and has thoughts on the Nolan's experience living in Widnes during that time.

Off to work -- it interferes with my passion, but a girl has to make a living.

Best to all,
Bets

You may or may not get a response to your query to the school. Schools often don't have the time to respond to family history questions.

Good tip. I will make it a questionnaire type yes/no with check/tick boxes and see if they are willing.

Hello Bets,
Re:

His mother's name was Harriet Hughes. Harriet came from Denbighshire, Wales. Her father's name was William, but I have little more information on Harriet.

Decided to do a little digging for Harriet. I was intrigued by the fact that in the last census Harriet has put simply Wales as her place of birth when most people were very specific. In 1901 she has NK against her name indicating not known; in 1891 she has Denbigh, Wales, which could be either the town or county; in 1881 she has just Wales. This says to me that she wasn't at all sure where she was actually born apart from the Denbighshire area of North Wales. It could be she was born in one area when very young but raised in another.

I looked at the 1861 census for her assuming that her estimated birth year of 1859 was about right [+/- a couple of years] with a father William in North Wales and found this single candidate. Does the father's occupation match her marriage certificate though?

RG09 - Piece: 4295 - Folio: 69 - Page: 25.
HUGHES, William - Head - Widower - 44 - 1817 - Carter - Abergele, Denbighshire.
HUGHES, Ellin - Dtr - U/m - 18 - 1843 - House-keeper for her father - St George, Denbighshire.
HUGHES, Anne - Dtr - 10 - 1851 - Scholar - St George, Denbighshire.
HUGHES, David - Son - 8 - 1853 - Scholar - St George, Denbighshire.
HUGHES, Emrys - Son - 6 - 1855 - At Home - St Asaph, Flintshire.
HUGHES, Harriett - Dtr - 4 - 1857 - At Home - St Asaph, Flintshire.

Address: Faenol Cottage, Faenol, Wern, Denbighshire
[Faenol, pronounce Vi-nol (Vi as in Violet), translates as manor, and Wern as alder as in alder tree]

St George is/was a parish in the Abergele district of Denbighshire. There was a manor house known as Faenol and it is now a hotel.... http://www.faenolfawrhotel.co.uk/
Fawr [pronounced Vower, a derivative of the word mawr] means large, big. Makes sense for a manor house. In Welsh the descriptive adjective usually come after its noun.

Not sure what Harriet's mother's name was but I am thinking Ann from a find in 1851 at
HO107 - Piece: 2507 - Folio: 9 - Page: 11.
Reg. District: Saint Asaph
Sub District: Abergele
Parish: St George

Flintshire and Denbighshire were neighbouring counties. St Asaph in Flintshire is a very short distance from Abergele in Denbighshire, and was a large administrative area.

WOW! You are good. Here's what I can tell you. My mother and Aunt, both deceased, and who started this prior to ancestry.com and the "craze" left a hand-written genealogy chart. They have Harriet Hughes born 1858 in Montgomeryshire Wales. They also noted she was a nurse. I believe the nurse part to be accurate, but not sure where or from whom they got Montgomeryshire Wales.

I applied for a birth certificate from Llangyniew Montgomeryshire Wales and received this response: "We have searched the indexes for events registered in England and Wales during the years specified (1857 - 1859). We have been unable to find any entry with the details you provided."

There is an 1861 Wales Census listing Harriet as a granddaughter, born in Llangyniew, Montgomeryshire, Wales with a Hughes family -- father William. The names of the children who are Harriet’s siblings or aunts and uncles in this census are similar to the names of the children that Harriet gave to her own children (Sarah, Anne, Margaret as well as John - but I don't think John counts since my ancestors seemed to name every first born son, John).

The 1871 Wales Census does not indicate she is still with the Hughes family. There is a Harriet Hughes of the same age and in the same area who is a servant on a farm at Llanoddian Hall, Llanfair Caereinion Welshpool Powys SY21 0HR UK

Then the 1861 Wales Census you cite listing her as a daughter of William with place of birth as St. Asanphy, Flintshire, Wales. She did name one of her daughters Anne, but both families have an Anne.

This one has been difficult as I don't feel I have enough documentation to claim either the Harriet Hughes in Llangyniew, Montgomeryshire or the Harriet Hughes in Denbighshire and am perplexed on which road to take. I have been down one rabbit hole on this one already -- even met my new-found cousins when I was in Liverpool last year (although this was a vacation and not a genealogy trip). They are lovely and we are still in touch, but I soon discovered after returning home, we were no relation at all.

The only thing I can think of doing is populate my family tree on ancestry.com with one family and see if it leads me to family members who can confirm her membership in their family and if not, then populate my tree with the other family and see what that turns up. Would love recommendations/thoughts on this situation.

Thanks again. You all have been terrific and very helpful. But, I'm sure you all love puzzles and mysteries.

Bets

Hi Bets,
Just a note of guidance re

Then the 1861 Wales Census you cite listing her as a daughter of William with place of birth as St. Asaph, Flintshire, Wales.

The town of St Asaph may not be where she was actually born. It is where the nearest Registry Office was located. Only the birth certificate will tell you the place of birth. This site will give you the list of towns, villages, and civil parishes etc, with a given Registration District. http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/district-list.html#S
If you look at St Asaph you will see it includes the towns of Abergele, Denbigh, Rhyl, St. Asaph and covers parts of both Denbighshire and Flintshire.

Another sometimes confusing aspect of the registration system is that a birth can take place in one quarter but not be registered until the following quarter or even the one after that despite the legal requirement that births be registered within 6 weeks of the event. And it can happen that a birth takes place in say December 1860 but is not registered until January 1861. This means the GRO Index reference for that birth will be the March quarter of 1861. I have encountered a birth registered in the June quarter of a year only to discover the actual birth was in the August of the previous year.

I doubt that the Harriet born in Llangyniew, Montgomeryshire, is your Harriet because nowhere in any census does she mention either Llangyniew or Montgomeryshire. The 1861 census reference
[RG09 - Piece: 4260 - Folio: 34 - Page: 14] cites William Hughes as head of household and Harriet is his g.daughter, not daughter.

Onwards and backwards....

The town of St Asaph ....

Now proudly "restored" to the status of City http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-nort ... s-17365580