Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi folks back again. Stuck with William Jones who married Sara West Davies.

He was 39 and a Bachelor, she was 34 and a widow (she was previously Sara West Smart). He was born 1851 (going off the marriage certificate)

Marriage took place at St Clements Church, Walton on the Hill on 11th June 1890

He lived at 39 Cullen Street and she lived at number 50.

His father was a Coachman, and he was called William Jones

I am completely stuck, because the name is Jones........ any idea how I can narrow it down to the right Jones family.

In 1911 I have him aged 60 living with Sara and his step grandaughter, Jessie May in 16 Liffey street. I know in 1924 when Jessie May married she gave her address as 48 Thames Street, but whether he was alive then I dont know.

Can anyone help ..........from cradle to death for me, I am going around in circles as usual

Hi Sue
My first thought was where was he born?
1891 solved this, born Lpool 1851 cab driver living 35 Abyssinia St Wavertree
(Liberty, Oak Abyssinia ran off Wellington Rd, my brother knew a song about these streets!)
Sarah 35 dressmaker bn London, step sons John Davies 13 bn Lpool shop boy (had a paper round )
Charles Davies 9 bn Lpool.

I doubted Wm would be with his family in 1881 being 30yrs of age so I looked in 1871.
There is a William coachman bn Holyhead, with his family in Whiston.
The kiddies are all born in various suburbs of Lpool including Wm jr.
Could be Sue's William or a long shot?
RG10/3860/59/8
baby Wm 1851
HO107/2192/863/18

I went down the list in the 1881 census, assuming that he was telling the truth about being a bachelor so not really checking any who were married. The only one that stood out was William, a carter, born 1850 who was boarding in Blandford Street (Islington area) with a Henry J Pilcher, wife and family, Henry was a Van Driver. In the household there was also a John E Jones, Labourer age 26 who of course may not be connected in anyway to this William.

It was the occupation that made me wonder, he may have evolved from a carter to a cab driver.

Please confirm his occupation from the marriage certificate and also who were the witnesses?

Good questions Mary.

I like your 1871 entry too.

We have a mutual admiration society

Mary

The more I look at that 1871 entry Tina found, the more I like it.

Halsnead Park, Whiston, Lancashire
William Jones Head M 45 Coachman North Wales, Holyhead
Charlotte Wife M 49 Montgomeryshire Aberhaveop?
William son 20 Groom Lancashire West Derby
Sarah Jane daur 14 " Windsor
Susan Emma " 13 Scholar " Aigburth
Robert James son 10 " " West Derby
John Smith Jones son 9 " " "
Charles George son 7 " " "
Henry Gerrat son 6 " " "

and then in 1881 at 12 Wynne Street, West Derby
William Jones Head M 55 Cochman! Anglesey Holyhead
Charlotte Wife M 59 Montgomeryshire Newtown
Sarah Jane daur Unm 24 Domestic Servant Nurse Lancashire Liverpool
Henry J son 15 Domestic Servant Groom " Walton
RG11; Piece: 3702; Folio: 45; Page: 23

Next door to them in 1871 is Halsnead Hall with a number of servants, eg Governess, Cook, Housemaid, Footman etc. The feeling I get is that William Jones coachman and possibly even William Jones the son both worked for the Hall and then when they left they returned to Liverpool, younger William looking for work and lodgings on his own.

You mentioned Windsor in your other post and although we know it as an area in Toxteth, it's not very common for it to be quoted as a place of birth etc. For it to crop up as a place given for Sarah Jane's birthplace is very coincidental - just a thought, could William have returned to that area because he knew people from before they moved to Whiston?

Could this be the 1861 census for this family?
Delf Cottages Breck Road
William Jones 36 coachman bn Holyhead Anglesey
Charlotte wife 39 bn Montgomeryshire
William Edward son 10 bn West Derby
Mary Ann daur 9 bn West Derby
Charlotte Elizabeth daur 6 bn Toxteth Park
Sarah Jane daur 4 bn Aigburth
Susan Emma daughter 3 bn Aigburth
Thomas Henry son 1 bn Walton
Robert James son 1 month bn Walton

There are 3 William Edward births in West Derby in 1851/2

hi folks going great guns with the information you gave me on ancestry then I connect to some one with same information on a William (Edward) Jones. Same census's as well!! Unfortunately she has him going to Canada and dying in 1917!!!


Tina/Mary
I think though hes mine.........because I have the marriage certificate and it shows
William Jones snr as a coachman............and William Jones jnr as a coachman. William had no middle name on the marriage cert ..............and he was 39 and a bachelor. He gave his address as 39 Cullen street Liverpool and Sara lived at 50 that was in 1890.

The witness were Joseph and Helen Smart which were siblings of Sara.

Please let him be mine..........the Davies and Jones are driving me mad

I'd contact the tree holder and see if she has documentary evidence that it's her William if you see what I mean. If she has well we'll all have to think again. If she hasn't she could be wrong!

Halsnead Park was owned by the Willis family of Halsnead Hall, Whiston big land owner's of the area, owner of the coal mines etc. Very well to do family its them that got me into this researching lark way back in 1983 when I took up abode at 30, Cross Lane, Whiston when I found a old chest in my garage. Took me 22 years to find out who the chest belonged to and it was my World War One research that cracked it.

Talk about bit between the teeth and not letting go!

Hi

I was looking at 39 Cullen Street in 1891 living there was

William Dalzell age 28 French Polisher b Westmorland
Emma age 24 b Lpool
Joseph age 2 b Lpool
Jane J age 4 months b Lpool

William Dalzell married Emma Taylor 1888 St Catheriens Edge Hill..

Then i looked at the 1901 for William Jones and Sara..living with them is Williams brother In Law

Thomas Taylor age 39 Widow Occ Striker b Lpool
Dau Annie age 17 b Lpool
Son Richard age 14 b Lpool
Dau Ellen age 12 b Lpool
all neices and nephews to William Jones.

To me its looking like William Jones lodged with the Dalzells in 1890 his sister ends up marrying Thomas Taylor the brother of Emma Dalzell formaly Taylor..

I am having trouble locating Thomas Taylor in 1891 to see who his wife was..she will be William Jones's sister..so another clue to his family.....


xx

Hi

Ok just realised Thomas Taylor was Sara's Brother In Law

Hi Folks

Well having looked at other tree on ancestry. I think shes wrong!!!! She has baptism on the 16th Sep 1852 for a Wiliam Edward Jones, mother Jane and father William they lived at Park Road Liverpool, and he was a licenced vituerlla(sorry about spelling)

She then changes paths and put Charlotte as mother to tie in with census of 1851/1861/1871

I have emailed her to ask which is right..............but I think you ladies are right he's mine

Yes the Taylors are connected with the Sara West Smart family. Olive Jane Smart married a Taylor and was found in the family grave, when I was looking for John williams the son of Sara and William Davies, she died quite young. I have also found the Taylor family living with Sara when Olive died. Looking at my tree many of the sister married into the same families. One of her sister Elizabeth G married James Sara's first husbands William Davies's brothers. Should make my life easier, but it doesnt appear to do so

The 1851 census at HO107 2187 560 14 has at 144 Park Road Toxteth Park

William Jones 25 inn keeper (that's what it looks like to me) bn Liverpool
Jane wife 20
as visitors are Emma Brighouse aged 10 and John Brighouse aged 45 a widower

In 1850 a William Jones married Jane Brighouse. Could this be the couple who belong to the William Edward of the baptism?

Hi folks......gutted

answer to my email below

My William II died in Northwood Ontario Canada on April 1, 1917. On the death certificate his mothers name is indicated to be Charlotte Smith. In the photo album I spoke of there are pictures of 2 brothers as well as a sister named Susie. He relocated to Canada in 1885 where he became a farmer.

I just checked the baptismal record you referred to and I apologize, I must have saved it before I found the certificate of death where I learned his mothers name to be Charlotte. I have removed that record from my tree. We do seem to be linking the same info to two different William Joneses and other than the death certificate I mentioned and the photo album I have no other information to confirm my assumptions.

I know the date of death of my William Jones (off the grave details you gave me) Do I get this first and then get the birth certificate from his dob on that certificate.

Sue

The thing to do is to definitely identify Charlotte's maiden name, looking at the most unusual child's name and dob I think you need the birth certificate of Susan Emma Jones Q3 1857 W. Derby 8b 247 but ordering it ONLY if the parents names were William and Charlotte.

Hi mary

Sorry for being stupid, how will finding Susan Emma Jones help with my william

Did find baptisms for

JOHN SMITH JONES
CHARLES GEORGE JONES
HENRY JARRETT JONES
All addresses were Heatherlee, anfield, father occupation coachman/groom. All with the mother's name as Charlotte

Couldnt find baptisms for the other earlier children

I think that Charlotte's maiden name was SMITH ...... once again linking on to someone else with the other children included in the trees

I really wish I knew what I was doing