Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello All,

I am new to this group, I am researching my great grandfather Richard Chester Clair/Clare. In the records I have located for him the spelling was Clare. He was born in Liverpool, Toxteth Park, West Derby October 11, 1840 (per birth certificate). His parents appear to be Eliza Chester and John Clare, I have located them in the 1841 and 1851 census. His known siblings are James b. abt 1842 and Maria probably born July 1846. It seems the family all but dissapear after 1851 census where Eliza appears to be a widow. Maria is found in Brownlow Hill workhouse in 1865 having a daughter Eliza Maria. Richard may have been a member of Merchant Navy and he appears in the U.S. in 1871. I have located two possible registration #'s for him but so far have been unable to locate the records/cards associated with his time in this job. Are there any members who are researching this family who would like to share information?

Thank you,

Hi and welcome to the forum. You seem to have done very well so far but if there is anything specific we may be able to help with please give full details, of say the last census you have them on, refs etc. so that we have occupations, ages, birth places etc. to hand.

Also please state where you have already looked for Merchant Navy records in case one of the crew may have access to other databases which might help.

Hi, welcome on board
for anyone looking, here they are
Chesney Street
1841 all born in count, Toxteth Parky
HO107; Piece: 568; Book: 15; Folio: 11; Page: 14;
John Clave 30 ag lab
Eliza Clave 25
Richard Clave 3 Mo

in 1851
HO107; Piece: 2187; Folio: 378; Page: 23
94 Upper Woolfe Street
Eliza Clear 38b Tox Park, receiveing Parish Relief
Richard Clear 10
James Clear 8
Maria Clear 4

Hello and welcome!
I found a single entry for a Richard Clare bn Liverpool from the National Archives Lists.

Richard Clare
Place of birth: Liverpool
Register Ticket #: 261,119
Series: BT114; Date range:1845-1854; Piece number: 4.

Unfortunately from that time, the above may be the only 'mention' of him you will.

For the crew here the family are enumerated in 1851 as Clear:
CLEAR, Eliza - Head - Widow - 38 - 1813 - Receiving Parish Releif - Liverpool, Toxteth Park.
CLEAR, Richard - Son - 10 - 1841 - Scholar - Liverpool, Toxteth Park
CLEAR, James - Son - 8 - 1843 - Scholar - Liverpool, Toxteth Park.
CLEAR, Maria - Dtr - 4 - 1847 - Scholar - Liverpool, Toxteth Park
Address: 94 Upper Woolfe Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool.
Piece: 2187 - Folio: 378 - Page: 23

Haven't found anyone in 1861 yet!

1861 James maybe?
RG 9; Piece: 2645; Folio: 36; Page: 16
Vessels
Sloyne Mersey River
County/Island: Cheshire
Registration district: Birkenhead
Sub-registration district: Tranmere
ED, institution, or vessel: Conway (1)

James Clare 15 boy

The Conway was a training ship for boys. If you google it you will find lots of information. I believe the records are held at the National Maritime Museum Liverpool.

Thanks everyone for your help. I wonder if the Merchant Navy records for the time frame are not available, does that mean at all or just on line. In other words, if I went to the National Archives could I see them there? does anybody have any idea? And how would I go about accessing the records at the National Maritime Museum, Liverpool?

once4fun wrote:Thanks everyone for your help. I wonder if the Merchant Navy records for the time frame are not available, does that mean at all or just on line. In other words, if I went to the National Archives could I see them there? does anybody have any idea? And how would I go about accessing the records at the National Maritime Museum, Liverpool?

HMS Conway was also used for 'difficult' boys who the magistrates thought a 'little discipline' might improve their outlook and behaviour. Not all of them entered the Royal or Merchant Navy.

It is somewhat questionable if this is the correct couple since they don't appear to have had children till 1840.
Not to mention there is a death of an Eliza Clare in 1866 who is 45 years old and also a birth record of a John Clare in 1820 whose parent's are Eliza and John Clare.

Marriage: 29 Nov 1830 St Nicholas, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Clare - Labourer of Liverpool
Eliza Chesters - Spinster of Liverpool
Married by Banns by: J. Robinson Asst Curate
Register: Marriages 1830, Page 15, Entry 868
Source: LDS Film 1068891

The other question is what happened to the family after 1851, Richard always told the story of growing up in Chester and seeing the Walls of Wales. Presumably after both parents had died. With James perhaps showing up in Cheshire there might be some validity in this story.

Can you tell us a bit more about your Richard when and where did he marry? where did he end up settling, did he stay in USA or come back to England? what was his occupation?

John and Eliza may have more children before Richard, but perhaps they died

Simone x

there is this chap in 1861 lodging with the Bridge family at Pemberton
RG 9; Piece: 2782; Folio: 71; Page: 26;
Richard Clare 19 b Liverpool, coal miner

but then he may turn up lodging with the Horridge family in 1871 at Newton le Willows
RG10; Piece: 3899; Folio: 59; Page: 51
Richard Clare 28 labourer

Simone x

Good morning,

Well, Grandpa Richard married my Great Grandmother Susan a. Smith in Saxton, Bedford Co., Pennsylvania in 1871. We do not know exactly when he arrived in the U.S. but I assume he had been here for at least a few years before he married. They had 4 children one of which was my Grandfather Rev. James W. Clair. Richard worked as a surveyer for the railroad, which is what took him to Pennsylvania. He moved his family to Braddock a part of Pittsburgh about 1882 where he either surveyed or worked as a civil engineer. He died in his daughters home in Pittsburgh in 1916. He never did return to England, but as most people do who leave their home country to stay in an adopted one he sometimes would say the England was better than the U.S. but, he was still here the day he died so perhaps it was homesickness and thoughts of a family he left behind.

Pauline

Hi Pauline

I'm not that well up on maritime research but here is a link to Merseside Maritime Museum that may help a bit

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/maritime/archive/

Simone x

wonder if this may be an earlier child for John and Eliza who has died shortly after


John Clare
gender: Male
baptism/christening date: 29 Dec 1834
SAINT PETER,LIVERPOOL,LANCASHIRE,ENGLAND
father's name: John Clare
mother's name: Eliza
indexing project (batch) number:
P02027-4

Thank you Simone, I will have to sit down and see if I can find James and/or Richard listed on any of the companies listed there. I have a few thoughts and questions and maybe someone knows an answer.

1. First, I don't feel the Richard listed on the Merchant Navy is likely to be my Richard based on the fact that the records run till 1854 and he would only have been 14 years old. A little young to sail the world. Is there any chance he could be in the HMS Conway school with James? How do I check that?

2. I found a possible death for Eliza Clare in 1852, the location is correct (West Derby. Lancashire) 8B/264 but no other Identifiers. How would I go about finding what information is on the certificate before spending $35.00 or more to order it? A second possibility is Eliza Jane Clare in 1857, Liverpool, Lancashire 8B/125.

Same goes for the baby John which Simone kindly located. BTW, I located the Merchant Navy information on Find My Past.com. I think the catagory of cards should be BT116 but I do not seem to be able to pull them up.

Pauline

Hi Pauline,
I don't know who has been quoting you the cost of BMD certs from the GRO, but the GRO charge £9.25 per cert which equates to $14.48 at current rates, and that includes postage.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp

RE:

BTW, I located the Merchant Navy information on Find My Past.com. I think the catagory of cards should be BT116 but I do not seem to be able to pull them up.

The information consists of a single line entry on single page in a ledger. There are no carded records as in later instances. The only info there is what I posted.

Thanks for that info. I got the quote from Ancestry.com. I will check the link you sent and try to order there. I also found the registration that you posted for Merchant Navy and another for Rch_d Clare but as I stated I am questioning the possibility that it could be Richard at that young age.

Thanks Dickiesam,
Pauline

Pauline wrote:Thanks for that info. I got the quote from Ancestry.com. I will check the link you sent and try to order there. I also found the registration that you posted for Merchant Navy and another for Rch_d Clare but as I stated I am questioning the possibility that it could be Richard at that young age.

Thanks Dickiesam,
Pauline

There are in fact 5 entries for a Richard Clare. 4 are for the same man and it's the same page and they have the same Ticket # 261,119. The other entry, again in a ledger, has the Ticket # 273709 and could be the same man. There are no YoBs for any of them.

Regarding age, boys often went to sea as young as 14 and in fact became junior officers in the Royal Navy at that age and younger.
From: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/em ... a_01.shtml
Professional sailors.
Sailors generally went to sea as boys. By the time they were 16 they could be rated as seamen, and normally served at sea for another ten years, before settling down and taking a shore or local sailing job. The idea of being single, free of responsibilities and well paid would have made a career at sea obviously alluring, but the attractions could also undoubtedly wear off, and only a small percentage of men stayed on at sea, rising to be naval petty officers and merchant shipmasters.

And from: http://www.cnrs-scrn.org/northern_marin ... _11-24.pdf
Few of John's comrades would have fitted Herman Melville's ideal of "the handsome sailor" Billy Budd, for the smallpox had left its marks on many of the young faces - so much that the Marine Society used the boys' smallpox-scars as a way of identifying them.

What we would find most astonishing about John's appearance is his height: He was tiny. On average John would be merely around four feet five inches short. The table puts the boys' mean/median height in relation to their age:
Age:-----12-----13---14---15---16--17---18--19.
Height: 4ft 3in 4'4" 4'6" 4' 7" 4' 9" 4'10" 4'11" 5'

Pauline wrote:I got the quote from Ancestry.com. I will check the link you sent and try to order there.

Do not ever order a certificate via an online subscription site, the cost will be at least double what you can order from either the GRO (£9.25) or the local Register Office, which I believe is now £10 making that more expensive. Dickiesam's link to the GRO is the best, especially as you have the reference needed.

I placed the order online at GRO today for the two possibles. I never had to order a death certificate outside the U.S. before and am so grateful I found all of you to walk me through this adventure!! When I can narrow down the references for the marriage and possible birth & death of baby John in 1934 I plan to order them also. I am not sure how much more I would learn on the marriage certificate but if I get their father's names that will be a bonus!!