Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi Peeps
Please can you look in Anx for the baptism in Lpool Catholic records of Helena Woolcott
at St Philip Neri 27.11.1869 father Gulielmi & mother Helena.
There is wording at the very bottom of the baptism, my friend asked me to translate,apart from a name, I don't know what it all means.
Thanking you in advance.
Cheers

I'm struggling!

Newar the beginning is something that looks like

absque caeremdensi the first word translates as without or except - the second word as I have read it doesn't exsist.

Could this mean the child was baptised privately?

At the bottom it seems to say

ceremonae postea suppletae sunt a me Thomas Carroll oniss apostico die 13 Decembre

After a bit of googling I think it means ceremony afterwards completed by me Thomas Carrroll priest on 13 December

I have never done any Latin neither am I an expert at Catholic registers as I have no Catholics so far in the family. This is just my suggestion.

The only other thing I could suggest is to ask a local Catholic Priest on their take on the entry.

There might be somebody who knows some Latin but doesn't have Ancestry access so thought I would post it and see.

A (ab)-from, by
Sunt- they are
Post partum-after birth
Post-after
Posterus-following

I think Hilary is right with regaard to Ceremony. Its not in my Latin list but I have seen it in the baptism register. Suppletae. Could that stand for Supplied? Thats not in my list either.

I have had a look at this and been on various translation sites.

Absque Caeremoniae meaning Without Ceremony.

I think that the child was perhaps baptised later by Thomas Carroll on 13th December.

There is something to do with a mistake and the higher authorities were informed.

That is my take on it anyway, I haven't a clue about Latin.

Jan

Suppletae - makes me think of supplementary? as in maybe there was a private baptism and now this has been recorded supplementary to it.

The dates for the baptisms are all over the place, there are only 6 of them at the church.
It could mean without ceremony? which was done later?
Perhaps the child was registered but too sick to be baptised?
Just a thought.
Tina

I've sent an email to somebody I know who knows quite a bit of Latin, just hope she picks up her emails regularly.

Tks Mary

I think maybe the child was thought to be very sick and was just baptised without a full baptism service. When she recovered, the priest carried out a full baptism.

Caerimoniae - sacred service
postea - afterwards
suppletae sunt - was completed or made good
a me - by me

Marchbird

Thanks Marchbird, I was thinking along the same lines but you have clinched it for me.
Well done
Cheers

Friend replied with the following quite informative reply:

As far as I can make out, I believe the entry should read:

1) The transcribed entry in the Baptism register:
Anno 1869, mensis Octobius nata et anno 1869 die 27. mensis Novemb bapitzata est
Absque caerimoniis Hellena Woolcott filia Gulielemi et
Helenae Woolcott (olim Scannell) conjugum:
a me Thomas Duaene (?) Miss: Coad:
Patrinus fuit: Jacobus Bucke Matrina fuit Helena Ellard
Caerimoniae portea suppletae sunt a me, Thomas Carroll, [Anifs: Afont co : ?]
Die 13 Decemb.


2) The English version reads: (though there are still some queries as I can't make out the letters)

No.176: Woolcott
In the Year: 1869, Day: 12, Month: October, was born and in the year 1869,
day 27th, Month November, was baptised:
Without ceremonies: Helen Woolcott, Daughter of
William and Helen Woolcott (formerly Scannell) spouse:
by me: Thomas Duaene (Miss = of the Mission; Coad ?)
Godfather is to be: James Bucke: Godmother is to be: Helen Ellard
Ceremonies hereafter were made good by Me, Thomas Carroll, (Onifs: Afont co: this could be priest as someone has suggested: I think it could be secretary hand for onus/oneris meaning burdon, load, force, effect, charged = possibly as in charged with performing this duty). There are various Latin words for priest: sacerdos, flamen, pontifedx = high priest, antistes. The word here could be apostle)
Day: 13 December


3) Latin Words
Caerimoniae = religious rituals, ceremonies
missa = mass
postea = hereafter
suppletae - (supplere) = to fill up, make good, made up to the full complement
sunt - are/were
suppletae sunt = passive tense in use here; suppletae is feminine plural ending referring to the feminine plural ending of Caerimoniae.


4) Misc:
a) I see from the 1871 Census that Helen Ellard is the Aunt of Helen Woolcott
b) Could Thomas Duaene (?) be a "locum" priest and Thomas Carroll the actual priest who rectified any admin irregularities?
c) People need to understand that Latin nouns, adjectives, verbs all decline/conjugate and their endings change with the declension, gender and whether singular or plural. Also this is 19th century Latin and they are using a "z" in the Latin word bapitzata which is not Latin as written in the days of Ancient Rome.

Wow Mary, thank you so very much for fantastic information.
Much appreciated.

I've passed on your thanks to my friend.