William Driver about 1853-1857 Manchester/Liverpool

[lollyrs]

These are the facts that I have.

in 1881 census he is listed as living in 2 willmot street everton aged 28 a farrier born in Lancs Manchester and married to Mary with 2 sons John Driver and his brother Henry. (This would mean born about 1853 in manchester)

I found the marriage certificate to mary Dicks(DIX) in December 1874. His fathers name is listed as Thomas Driver a whitesmith by trade.

I then looked for a birth certificate for William driver with a parents name of Thomas. There are several and I have sent away for these but cant work out if any of them are really my william driver.

I tried to look in the 1971 1861 1851 census returns to see if I could find the family but cant get anything to link to a mother. So I am unsure where to go next.

When I found the family on the 1901 and 1911 census the ages are a bit out of sinc as is the place of birth for example
1901 William Driver age given is 44 and occupation horse shoer and place of birth liverpool lancs
(the rest of the family here are his wive mary dix's relatives the newcomes and the blackburns so I know this is the right person) (this would make his birth in the year 1857 in liverpool )

1911 census he is a widower aged 61 and a boarder at 96-98 soho street liverpool. His occupation is given as farrier and his place of birth liverpool. (this would make his birth in the year 1850 in liverpool, as he lived in lodgings this could be that the landlords didnt know much about him ?)

The entry for his death is Dec 1914 age given about 60 and date of birth about 1853.

I think therefore that I am looking for William Driver born about 1853-1857 in either liverpool or manchester and where his fathers name is Thomas.
If anyone can help or if anyone can put me in contact with a researcher that could help I would really like to prove this one way or another as its been puzzling me for over 10 years now.

Many thanks

Lorraine

[dickiesam]

Hi,
Re the 1881 census. In addition to William and his wife Mary and their 2 sons the following are in the same household including his mother:

DRIVER, Hannah - Mother - Widow - 53 - 1828 - Charwoman - Penrith, Cumberland.
DICKS, Annie - Sister-in-law - u/m - 16 - 1865 - Invalid (No Occ) - Liverpool.
BLACKBURNE, Rachel - Niece - 9 - 1872 - Scholar - Liverpool
Address: 2 Wilmot St, Everton, Liverpool.
RG11 - Piece:3653 - Folio: 52 - Page:42

[lollyrs]

Ah yes that old chestnut, I followed this link for many years looking for william driver and parents hannah and Thomas. I then found hannah in the 1891 census living with annie dicks, apparently she is the mother in law not the mother in the 1881 census.

So I am still looking for the mother

[Hilary]

I was wondering about this one

1861 2 Eldon Place Birkenhead
Alice Driver wife 39 wife of smith and something I can't read bn Manchester
William son 9 bn Manchester
Mary Helen 6 daughter bn Birkemhead
then a lot of lodgers

Think I've found this one in 1881 as born in Longsight Manchester and married to Hannah Downes so not yours.

[lollyrs]

thanks Hilary I think I will go for a researcher to help me as I have scoured the internet and the church records for many years, and I have ended up linking lots of other drivers to see if there is a link I can work back to, but to no avail.

I did have a very tenuous link to a family called Potter and I get so far and then it all becaomes a bit flaky so I dont think that bransch is mine either.

Lorraine

[dickiesam]

Something to consider....
You say William's father Thomas is described as a 'whitesmith' on William's marriage cert.

Whitesmiths, aka tinsmiths, were often peripatetic, in other words a person who travels from place to place. Latterly known as 'tinkers', they would travel from village to village, from town to town, making and repairing 'white goods' aka tin pots, pans, buckets, baths etc.

It is quite possible William's wasn't registered if he was born 'on the road', perhaps somewhere near Manchester, and the city was 'adopted' by him as his birthplace as a matter of convenience. Also bear in mind that it was not up to the parents to register the birth at that time. It was the registrar's remit to 'find' births and record them. He was paid 'by the each' up to the early 1870s when it became the parents' legal obligation to register a birth. If the Driver family were 'on the road' it could have been very difficult for a registrar to find them.

And if the family were peripatetic, they may have been missed off a census, as Romany people probably were, being of no fixed abode.

[lollyrs]

Thank you for that information it puts a new slant on my tree and I dont know if I will ever be able to trace with such little information. I may start looking over a wider area and see if I can build a driver tree.

Thanks for this very useful information.
The marriage certificate shows
28 Dec 1874 William Driver of full age Farrier Greta Norton Street father Thomas Driver Whitesmith
Mary Dicks of full age Great Norton Street father Robert Dicks Shipwright
witnesses John Dean and Rachel Blackburn

William appeared to settle down after his marriage, he had 2 sons and I can find him on 1881 1901 and 1911 census, but sadly not on 1891 census or anything earlier than 1881.
It may be a bad transcript in 1891 or maybe they were out of the area who knows. He seems to always live with members of his wifes family so maybe he didnt have much in the way of his own. The marriage certificate doesnt tell me if his father Thomas was alive or dead as it wasnt a reqirement to do so.

I think I need a fresh pair of eyes to check over my details so I am off to document it all again.

Thanks for all help and advice

Lorraine

[dickiesam]

My assessment is that William didn't know for certain when and where he was born. Census ages are often a 'best guess', and the year of birth is calculated from that in the transcription. Similarly, ages at death were often a best guess by the informant.

Places of birth are also often a best guess and could be where his first memories where or what he was told, perhaps second or even third hand. The only probably fact appears to be his father was Thomas and a whitesmith. Sorry can't be of more positive help.

[simone]

Hi

Hope I'm not muddying thing here, but have you (and I bet you have) had a look at this chap
1881 RG11; Piece: 985; Folio: 99; Page: 20
Thomas Driver 64 Whitesmith b Yorkshire
boarding with the Brown family in Kent..

Tried to find this chap on census, but struggling

closest I got was this family in 1861 in Manchester
RG 9; Piece: 2964; Folio: 117; Page: 27
Thomas Driver 46 b Keighley, Yorkshire, Mechanic
Malinda Driver 50 b Stockport
James Driver 23 b Manchester
William Driver 14 b Manchester
Maria Driver 9 b Manchester

Thomas married Mallinda Galloway at Manchester in 1843.
can't find them after 1861, mind you can't find them in 1851


Also who is this Jeremiah, I can't see him on the census. John has witnessed the marriage.





Another marriage caught my eye,



could a Whitesmith be classed as a manufacturer? Also the commercial traveller bit? can't find James and Margaret?



Also Sarah Jane Driver has a dad Thomas but he is a blacksmith





and finally John's marriage witnessed ny Jeremiah





Simone x

[MaryA]

You've made some good connections there Simone, all names tie in together.

[simone]

I wonder if Jeremiah is Henry, I can't see a birth reg under Jeremiah

[simone]

1911 Jeremiah
RG14; Piece: 22515 at Larch Grove, Everton
all born Liverpool
Jeremiah Driver 33
Frances Driver 34
Lillian Driver 10
Elsie Driver 6


can't see them on 1901 at the moment

[Hilary]

I've checked out 13 Ambrose Street in 1881 and living there are James and Janet Jolliffe both 33 and their son Albert aged 8 but no sign of Sarah Jane.

Jeremiah died 1940 and left a will.

PS I had a giggle when I saw Jeremiah's address at marriage my great grandfather George Glover was born at 16 Greenwood Street Everton in 1854!!

[simone]

1901 Jeremiah and Frances at Larch Grove, daughter Lillian is actually Frances Lillian, but still can't see them on census

[simone]

was having a mooch around the Yorkshire area on census and also the West Yorkshire Parish records, a lot of the names common in Driver families, but did notice on the marriages that if I put driver in for father's surname they were all using Driver as a 1st,2nd/3rd name followed by a surname

[MaryA]

1901 - 2 Larch Grove, Everton
All born Liverpool
Jeremiah Draver 24 Bricksetter
Frances 25
Lilian 1 month
RG13 piece 3486 folio 87 page 53

[simone]

nice one Mary

[MaryA]

Your find of the address helped

[simone]

Hi

Hope I'm not muddying thing here, but have you (and I bet you have) had a look at this chap
1881 RG11; Piece: 985; Folio: 99; Page: 20
Thomas Driver 64 Whitesmith b Keighley, Yorkshire
boarding with the Brown family in Kent..

Tried to find this chap on census, but struggling

closest I got was this family in 1861 in Manchester
RG 9; Piece: 2964; Folio: 117; Page: 27
Thomas Driver 46 b Keighley, Yorkshire, Mechanic
Malinda Driver 50 b Stockport
James Driver 23 b Manchester
William Driver 14 b Manchester
Maria Driver 9 b Manchester

Thomas married Mallinda Galloway at Manchester in 1843.
can't find them after 1861, mind you can't find them in 1851

Simone x

found Mallinda in 1851 at last but husband William is missing
HO107; Piece: 2221; ; Page: 29 at 69 Leaf Street, Hulme
Malinda Amer 40 mechanic's wife, Cheshire Stockport
James Galloway 16 clerk
James Driver 12 errand boy
William Driver 4

[lollyrs]

dear simone

What a wonderful amount of work you have done thank you so much.

I do know that there was a Jeremiah driver who ran a tobacconist shop and did find entries in Gores index to support this. I then did the same search on the marriages and together with some family gossip i did arrive at the conclusion that Henry Driver John's brother converted to judaism when he married Frances mainwairing and at the same time changed his name from Henry to Jeremiah. The father and the rest of the family stories match. I had also found both John and Jeremiah in 1901 and 1911 census returns and the addresses all over the everton area support this too.
I recently did some online lookups of addresses in liverpool and the sorry loooking picture of 92 soho street (now a virtually derelict building advertising skip hire) was the final abode of my William Driver he was an elderely boarder living there in the 1911 census. Not sure why he wasnt living with either of his sons at that time.

Going backwards then to some of the other information you have provided it gives me some hope that I can link to one of the Thomas's and yesterday i started listing every Thomas driver in the census returns from 1851-1881 using a birth range of 1820-1830 ( I may have to extend this ) I hope shortly to have lists of familys and will rule out by a process of elimination all of those that cant be my Thomas ie farmers of own land and professional people, which I am sure he is not. It leaves me with many ag labs and woolen/cotton workers and a couple of interesting ones with iron/journeyman/scavenger types of occupation. I will make comparisons now with the mallinda one ( this name has come up before in my searches but I dint know if it was right or not)

Thankyou again simone it was lovely to see some of the documents you added to this email, I have spent years sending away for documents to support my family tree, how did you access these so easily ?

Lorraine x