Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I'm trying to locate the family of William Robert HILL with hope of finding his family and where he lived etc. He was my ggrandfather who migrated to Australia most probably in the early 1870's. I have his Birth Certificate which states:

Registration District: Liverpoool, 1846 birth in the sub-district of Mount Pleasant Liverpool in the County of Lancaster.
He was born on 11 May 1846 at 21 Hart Street, Liverpool, father: John HILL, a car driver, and mother: Ann Hill formerly GREEN.

To date I haven't been able to find a marriage for the parents and I'm unaware of any siblings etc. I can't even hazard a guess at the parent's ages as William could have been the youngest, or the eldest in the family. I have tried the UK Census and the ones that "could be" I'm very uncertain of, and I don't know very much about Lancashire which doesn't help. I did find in the 1861 Census a William Hill, 15yo grandson, who was a waggoner at a Colliery, but it states he was born at Farnsworth.

His Death Certificate names his father as John David HILL, a coachman, and mother as Helen GREEN. He died in Brisbane, Australia in 1917. His first child was born in Brisbane in 1874. I have searched the passenger lists and there are a lot of William Hills.

Can anyone help me please?

Regards

Laurette
NSW Australia

Hello Laurette and welcome,
Although I haven't found William yet in a census I notice that his birth registration is William 'Roberts' Hill. The 'Roberts' would indicate that there is a link, possibly through his father to a Roberts family. It may have been John's mother's maiden name.

Still looking....

Edit to add: No Lancashire matching marriages for a John Hill and an Ann/Helen Green from Sept qtr 1837 when GRO records began points to a marriage before that date, assuming they were married.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Just noting so that you know you aren't being ignored, that I've looked at Hart Street in both the 1841 and 1851 census, no luck. Checked Lancashire Marriages (for parents), no luck although that's not comprehensive. Checked Probate Register - inconclusive I'm afraid, and Baptisms for William.

There is a John and Ann (Cowkeeper) in Everton, baptism of child Anne in St Peter's 21 March, 1850, just noting for future.

His death certificate might not be 100% accurate as the information would have been given by somebody else rather than him.

Thank you both for your welcome and your replies. I was so excited when I received the Birth Certificate a number of years ago, thinking that I would be able to locate the family fairly easily; well, that soon came to a grinding halt!!

Laurette

Laurette wrote:Thank you both for your welcome and your replies. I was so excited when I received the Birth Certificate a number of years ago, thinking that I would be able to locate the family fairly easily; well, that soon came to a grinding halt!!

Laurette

Hi Laurette,
May I ask how you came by William's birth certificate if his birth isn't coming up in the GRO Index? Is it the original from 1846 by any chance?

With the apparent absence of William from any census, and I haven't found his parents yet either, I looked for a death for John David from 1845 to 1925 and came up with no possibles. I am wondering now if the entire family emigrated before 1851? If there is a death in Australia for John David it should give us an idea of when he was born and then married.

Found this possible marriage on FamilySearch. It is a bit 'early' for a 1846 birth but you never know.
Marriage: John Hill and ANN GREEN;
02 JUL 1826 - Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England.

Still pondering why I haven't found the family in 1851. William's father John's occupation on the birth cert as a 'car-driver' means to me that he was in effect a 'taxi-driver' with a small horse-drawn carriage such as a hansom working for a cab company or an individual. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab .

John may have 'migrated' to Liverpool in the early 1840s. The later description of coachman suggests he may have been later working for an individual or a family, or a company. If the former, his 'home' could have been almost anywhere in England or Wales.

Yes I do have the original Certificate. I ordered it from the GRO: William Roberts HILL Jun 1846 Liverpool 20 597.

I'm sure that I have previously searched the passenger lists to see if the family migrated to Australia, but I'll have another look. Thank you for the information about the mode of transport. It all helps.

Laurette

I'm thinking Dickiesam meant an old certificate when he said "original". Can I ask how you know you got the correct one from the GRO? did the birthday match one that you were already aware of? Is Roberts a family name rather than Robert?

The info on the Birth Certificate matched up with his Death Certificate, except for his age where it showed that he was 65yo when he died. Not sure if 'Roberts' is a family name or not. Have found him on the Qld Electoral Rolls as William Robert HILL, but funnily enough my grandmother (his daughter), had 5 sons, four of which I have their Birth Certificates, and guess what? She has her name as Gertrude ROBERTS!! I hadn't thought of a family name before as we all thought that she may have previously been married to a 'Roberts', which of course I couldn't find. I'm completely puzzled now. Why would she do that? I don't understand this.....

Where to from here? Should I purchase a Birth Certificate for one of her sisters' children to see if ROBERTS pops up there?

William Robert HILL married Mary Gilbert PENMAN in 1886 in Qld. They had four illegitimate daughters born 1874-1884, they married in 1886 then had a son William, born 1890. I haven't been able to find out why they didn't marry previously. Their story gets worse but it may be helpful.

Mary Gilbert PENMAN was born in Lanarkshire, Scotland in 1849. She migrated to Qld under the name of GILBERT, but when she married she stated that her parents were Henry CAMPBELL and Helen CARBARNS. A lot of research later and I found out that she was fostered by the CAMPBELLS at 2yo and I finally found that her name was Mary Gilbert PENMAN, which I don't think she ever knew.

Mary had an illegitimate child born at sea in 1872 but unfortunately died in Brisbane in 1873; her name was Mary. She then had four illegitimate daughters, Mary Ellen GILBERT 1874-1943 (unknown father), Ann Jane HILL 1876-1906 (registered under Hill and Gilbert), Harriett HILL 1879-1941 (registered under Hill and Gilbert), Gertrude HILL 1884-1927 (registered under Hill and Gilbert).

I don't know if all of this has been helpful or not. I had another look earlier on Qld passenger lists and couldn't find a John HILL that would be suitable.

You've certainly given me something to think about though. Thanks so much.

Laurette

Hi there

can you show us some of the documents you have, something seems realy odd are you 100% sure you have the right birth cert for William..does it actualy say in any document he was born in Liverpool...are you saying William met Mary in Australia..not in the UK ????

On the Scottish census is Mary down as Penman or Campbell ???? on Ancestrys family trees someone has her parents as Helen Drummond and William Penman so lots of conflicting info floating around..

there is also a William Hill in Crown St Glasgow lodger born 1849 born Ireland..on the 1871..


xx

Have you considered the family may be of Scots origin? You said in your first post that your had searched the 'UK' censuses so I wondered if you had searched Scotland which is separate to the England/Wales censuses.

There appear to be 3 William Robert Hills aged between 4 and 8 in the 1851 Scots census. I only had a few credits left so couldn't go for full details. There are 30 William Hills in the same age range.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/

MaryA wrote:I'm thinking Dickiesam meant an old certificate when he said "original".

I did mean the original, old cert and not a purchased copy. Should have made that clear.
Laurette has clarified which one she has, the latter.

Hi

1851 Gorbals Glasgow 40 Oxford Street

William Pennison b 1801 Glasgow Occ Book Steabella
Helen b 1808 Stirlingshire occ Booke Steabella
Robert b 1832 Glasgow Occ Book Markers App
William b 1835 Glasgow Cabinet Maker App
Margaret b 1840 Glasgow
Helen b 1848 Glasgow
Mary b 1850 Glasgow

Bap Mary Gilbert Penman Glasgow 20th Nov 1849 father William Penman mother Helen Drummond

Mary arrived in Brisbane in 1873 and I believe she met William around that period. They were married in 1886, she now using her foster parent's name of Mary CAMPBELL:

William Robert HILL, Labourer, of Clarence Street, South Brisbane, bachelor, 34yo, born Liverpool, Lancashire.
Father: John David HILL, coachman
Mother: Helen GREEN

Mary CAMPBELL, of Clarence Street, South Brisbane, spinster, 32yo, born Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Father: Henry CAMPBELL, missionary
Mother: Helen CARBARNS

I first found Mary GILBERT on the 1851 Census in the Parish of St John's, Glasgow:
Mrs Henry CAMPBELL, head, widow, 47yo, no occupation, born Parkhead, Glasgow.
John CAMPBELL, son, 23yo, student, Glasgow University, born Stonehouse, Glasgow.
Helen CAMPBELL, daughter, 16yo, worker in a cotton factory, born Dumbarton.
Sarah CAMPBELL, daughter, 13yo, worker in a cotton factory, born Jamaica, West Indies
Mary GILBERT, child nursing, 2yo, born Glasgow, Lanark.
Address: Gallowgate Street.

1861 Census in the Parish of Barony, Glasgow
Helen CAMPBELL, head, widow, 57yo, boarding house keeper, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Mary GILBERT, pauper, 12yo, domestic servant, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Address: 13 Anderston Quay

I found Helen CAMPBELL on the 1871 Census for Govan, Pollokshields, as a 68yo widow, a visitor, born Glasgow, Lanark.
I haven't found one for Mary GILBERT that I'm certain of.

I have been in touch with the Glasgow Archives and found that Helen Drummond PENMAN applied in 1852 for Relief for her family as her husband, William Penman, had just died, and that she had two children, Helen Baxter and Mary Gilbert. Her youngest daughter, Mary Gilbert, was a sick child, and the family also lived at Gallowgate Street. By the 1861 Census Helen Baxter PENMAN was staying with another family also. Going by the Relief records Helen Drummond PENMAN was very sick herself but as yet I haven't found her death record. I have both Helen's and Mary's birth records, Helen DRUMMOND and William PENMAN's marriage record, William's death record, and Helen DRUMMOND's birth record.

I've been researching the Scottish side for many, many years and I only came across these Relief records by accident, and only recently.

I'll have a look at the Scottish Census for the HILL family as they may have moved there, but William certainly wasn't born there.

Thanks once again for all your input.

Laurette

Hiya

what i am wondering is if Helen Penman.nee Drummond applies for Parish relief in 1852 the two girls you would think would still be living with her..when did WILLIAM DIE ?? was that 1852 ? as the family in 1851 William and Helen with daughters Helen and Mary are all together..

So how can Mary be in two places at once in 1851, and why use the name Gilbert when she Penman its odd isnt it..her own mother Helen must die so she stays with the Campbell's and takes their name.

you seem to have done very well with such a complicated family..

Then we move on to William ROBERT or ROBERTS? Hill mother Ann or Helen.. Green on his birth cert is it definalty Ann..its not crazy writting is it ..if you can please try to put image son of the certificates you have so we can look at them..

Love a good mystery xxxxxxxxxxxxx

If you would like to post an image, we have put together instructions how to do so here http://www.forum.liverpool-genealogy.or ... =16&t=9817 Please make sure you crop to just the area we need to check rather than posting the whole certificate.

Hi Laurette

did William have an occupation on his marriage certificate ???

Hi Collette

William PENMAN died 19 Aug 1852 and Helen PENMAN nee DRUMMOND applied for Parish Relief 23 August, the day after he was buried. By 1856 she got a "line of Admission to Poorhouse" (not really certain what that means), having only one child to support. I've searched the death records and couldn't find a death for Mary Gilbert PENMAN. She is also described as a "partially disabled child" on the application. By 1860 Helen applies for more relief as she is confined to bed. By 1861 Census Helen PENMAN (daughter) is with another family.

Your query about Mary being in two places at the same time on the 1851 Census - this has happened in another of my families in Gloucester. They were boat people on the canals and I found the whole family together in a house, and at the same time their son was on the canal boat. What I think has happened with Mary is that Census time the parents have indicated their whole family, whereas in actual fact Helen CAMPBELL was nursing young Mary. I don't believe Mary knew her real name, nor do I think Helen CAMPBELL did either, as she has her on each Census as Mary GILBERT. If I hadn't found the Parish Relief records I would still be searching all GILBERT families, which nearly sent me bonkers. Each birth for a Mary GILBERT around that period of time I cross-checked each entry against the Census, and found them all with their appropriate families. It's been a long drawn-out process.

William HILL's occupation on his marriage certificate was a labourer, same on Death Certificate and also Electoral Rolls. His children's Birth Certificates also states he was born in Liverpool, Lancashire.

I'll try and put their Marriage Certificate up but I can't promise it will work. The writing on his Birth Certificate is quite clear and his mother is Ann GREEN, and it's quite clear on his Marriage Certificate where his mother is Helen GREEN.

Laurette

Hi Laurette everything seems to add up..

Could it be possible that Williams entire family went to Australia, this is maybe why we cannot locate them in Liverpool..got a feeling his folks maybe Irish..and thats why we can find no marriage..last night i looked right through Hart Street and the streets either side in 1841 & 1851 could not see any Hill's or Greens (sounds like a golf course haaaa)

Admission to Poorhouse for Helen means she went into the Glasgow Poorhouse NOT Workhouse on Parliamentary Road, they were two different places 1856 but looks like she is out again by 1860 if she was applying for Parish relief again.
She may have recovered from her illness and remarried worth looking into that.

Hi Collette

I appreciated your "golf" joke, had a good old chuckle....

I have looked for a marriage for Helen PENMAN nee DRUMMOND, but I'll have another go at it, plus her death record. I'll have a search for passenger lists for New South Wales and Victoria. Have searched Qld.

Thanks for searching those records for me, much appreciated. Will let you know if I have any luck with the passenger lists.

Laurette