Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hello

I've posted this query previously on another forum but didn't manage to make any progress. I've since come across this forum, since it is more local I am hoping that progress can be made.

I hope someone here might be able to help me. My own efforts have led nowhere and someone here, with a fresh eye, might spot a way forward.

My great grandfather was John Sudlow (1840 – 1905).

At the 1881 census he is unmarried and living with his sister Annie Donaldson (nee Sudlow) at 54 Tudor Street, West Derby, Liverpool.

In September 1883 he is living at 16 Bland Grove, Phythian Street, when my grandfather John Jackson Sudlow is born. On the birth certificate the mother’s name is given as Emma Jane Sudlow (formerly Jackson). A bit confusingly the baptism record from St Peter’s, Liverpool (4 December 1885) gives the parents names as John and Amy.

At the 1891 census he is widowed and back living with his sister Annie, also widowed, at 13 Atwell Street, Everton.

Apart from the birth of my grandad I have been unable to find any record of Emma Jane Jackson. No marriage details or death details.

Any help or suggestions would be gratefully received.

Suds

Hi and welcome!
As you probably already know there isn't a matching Sudlow/Jackson marriage in England and Wales between 1858 [when John would have been 18] and 1883 when his son was born. And there is no death of an Emma Jane Sudlow between 1883 and 1891.

I would suspect that there was no marriage, that for some reason the parents could not marry, and to avoid the 'slur' of illegitimacy they lied at the birth registration and said they were married. Perhaps she was already married and John the father had agreed to care for the child who was given the mother's surname, Jackson. Proof of marriage was not required at a birth registration.

In the 1891 census, in order to present the face of decency to the enumerator and account for his son's presence and the absence of a wife, John's sister Annie says he is widowed. With regard to the baptism, oddly it was over 2 years after the birth, it is possible Emma sounded like Amy to the priest, or if Emma was not present perhaps John simply got the name wrong. Tangled webs and all that......

Thanks for your response dickiesam. Your thought processes are similar to mine.

There are a couple of things that might be relevant:

On John Jackson Sudlow's birth certificate his father (who is the informant, as you surmise) gives his occupation as Parish Officer. I'm not entirely sure what that entailed, or if it is indeed relevant.

John Sudlow (the father) had a number of siblings and step siblings. Two of them married people from Cork. It's possible that Emma Jane Jackson was Irish. Even so, I've been unable to find any trace.

I end up coming back to the sort of scenario you describe.

Suds

Hi Suds,
Looks to me as though John Sudlow was a career bachelor who got himself in spot of bother with a married lady. In regard to occupations, in 1871 he is a clerk in the Poor Law Office in Liverpool. That Office would probably be in charge of the Workhouses. In 1881, 1891 and 1901 he is a Commercial Clerk, possibly still with the Liverpool Poor Law Office. Parish Officer sounds pretty impressive, so he's a career white collar worker for the Liverpool City Council.

The family have got form, working for the council.

John Sudlow's grandfather was clerk to the Liverpool treasurer for many years. When he retired his son John (our John Sudlow's father) took his place before leaving to become a commissioner for Birkenhead.

I suspect our John Sudlow may have been a bit wayward.There is a newspaper report from 1880 that has him arrested in the Isle of Wight, saying that he had taken money from the parish rates. A check at his work doesn't seem to find any money missing and I can find no record of a subsequent trial. We have speculated that he was up to no good with his lady friend (John Jackson's mother?), got found out and made up a big cock and bull story to cover his tracks and maybe protect the lady.

We'll never know, I guess.

Suds

Hi

Have you seen this on Ancestry


Emma Jane Jackson

Birth Date: abt 1871
Baptism Date: 3 Apr 1871
Parish: Toxteth Park Holy Trinity
Father's Name: Samuel Jackson
Mother's Name: Emma Jackson

the actual baptism took place in 3/4/1822, and all the other baptisms took place in the 1820's..
I know this lady would have been 60ish when John Jackson born but wonder if she could be connected
Also not surprised we can't find some things sometimes, when 1820's baptisms are written in 1871 register

btw I have an Emily known as Amy on all census...

Simone x

Hi

Is this baptism from 1832 anything to do with the family


Charlotte Emma Jackson Sudlow
Birth Date: abt 1832
Baptism Date: 25 Mar 1832
Parish: Liverpool St Martin-in-the-Fields
Father's Name: John Sudlow - Accountant -- Castle Street
Mother's Name: Catherine Sudlow

There is a note in the margin
'18 Feb 1827 Charlotte Gladwin'

Simone x

Simone

Thanks for your response, much appreciated.

It's a good spot and I'm in awe that you found it. I can imagine the relationship between a 43 year old man and a 59 year old woman but even today I think it's rare for a 59 year old woman to give birth. Did it often happen in the nineteenth century? I've no idea. Any thoughts appreciated. There is an Emma Jane Jackson who gets married in Liverpool in 1849 that could be the lady born in 1822.

Charlotte Emma Jackson Sudlow is one of mine. Her father John Sudlow is the father of the John Sudlow that we are discussing here. I think it's a maddening coincidence. John Sudlow ( the senior one here, I know, I know it's maddening all these Johns, my father was another one) was a commissioner for Birkenhead. He gave some of his children the names of Birkenhead worthies:

Sir William Jackson who was MP for Birkenhead lived at Claughton Hall. The only bit of John Sudlow's handwriting that I have seen is his notation of his address in a book which he gives as Claughton Hall. There is a Clover Dock in Birkenhead and one of his daughters has the name Clover. It's speculation but it looks like he was doing a bit of brown nosing. Another thought that had crossed my mind previously was the possibility that one of Sir William Jackson's relatives got pregnant and the resulting child (John Jackson Sudlow) was taken on as a favour, or for money for that matter.

Once again thanks for your input. As I said a fresh eye might just spot something that I've missed.

Suds

Hi

I did wonder if Charlotte could have been the mother because although 'siblings' they are not actually blood realted by the look of it... ..Maybe then he would have used her middle names on the birth record..
would have made her about 56 at birth.. not impossible I suppose, seen it before

I see Charlotte married another Sudlow, Henry

really seems so coincidental the name... got to be a family link surely

Was also wondering if Emma Jane Jackson was a name of a grandmother/greatgrandmother and he had just decided to use it

Simone x

Simone

The grandparents of John Jackson Sudlow are Sudlow, Mercer, Hobbs and Prittie. I'm not aware of any Jackson ancestors. The Hobbs and Pritties are from Cork. There is quite a strong connection to Cork, one of the reasons why I try and keep an open mind on Emma Jane Jackson being Irish.

John Jackson Sudlow's father (John) and Charlotte Emma Jackson have a common father, different mothers. Charlotte Emma Jackson Sudlow's husband, Henry Sudlow, is still alive in 1883. I can see that she has a bit of previous in being attracted to near relatives but it seems a bit unlikely in this case. She had the last of her children within her marriage fifteen years before.

It's good that we're exploring these remote byways. Makes me think.

Suds

Hi Suds

Do you know where the Gladwin name comes in The only reason I was thinking they may not be blood relatives is because of the annotation on the baptism for Charlotte that seems to say she was born Charlotte Gladwin in 1827, or could Gladwin be a middle name She has been baptsied age 5 and I was thinking that that may have been their way of trying to bring into the Sudlow family on a formal basis or was first wife to John a Gladwin

gets confusing doesn't it sometimes, especially as you say when they all have same names

Simone x

Simone

I'm sorry I didn't address that.

'18 Feb 1827 Charlotte Gladwin'

The side note doesn't ring any bells for me. I've not come across the name Gladwin associated with my family. What do you think it might mean?

I've had a quick look on familysearch and can't find anything relevnt

Suds

Simone

I've not got my brain in gear. I can see that you have already put forward a thought. It must be possible that she was adopted.

John Sudlow (the father of Charlotte Emma Jackson Sudlow) died intestate in 1850. A number of his children were still minors. so a guardianship document was set up. Although Charlotte Emma Jackson Sudlow is married by this time she is noted as a lawful child. I guess that if she'd been adopted that would still be a true statement.

Suds

Hi all,

The Lancashire OPC entry for Charlotte's birth shows Chas T Gladwin as the minister:

Baptisms: 25 Mar 1832 St Martin in the Field, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Charlotte Emma Jackson Sudlow - Daughter of John Sudlow & Catherine
Abode: Castle St
Occupation: Accountant
Notes: ? 18th Feb 1827 Chas Thos Gladwin
Baptised by: Received by Chas Thos Gladwin Asst Min
Register: Baptisms 1829 - 1850, Page 39, Entry 307
Source: LDS Film 1656205

I'm guessing the 18 Feb 1827 was her date of birth. Several other of John & Catherine's children were baptised a few years after their birth.

Alison x

Alison C

Thanks for that.

I certainly have the date of birth of Charlotte as 18 Feb 1827.

I think you are saying that the note on the entry you quote:

Notes: ? 18th Feb 1827 Chas Thos Gladwin

has been mis quoted as:

'18 Feb 1827 Charlotte Gladwin'

I haven't seen the entry so can't comment. It looks possible though.

Many thanks for your input.

Suds

Dohhh, sorry Suds I can see it now in that tiny squashed up writing

Nice spot Alison

thought we were nearly onto something there

Simone x

Simone

Nice try though. It's good to have another pair of eyes on it. We can all make mistakes.

Suds

Hi

My husband's great grandfather was John Jackson Sudlow also! I have been working on both his and my own family tree for the past 7 years or so and have had the same problems finding out about John Jackson's mother. I had completely given up until i saw this on the forum yesterday by fluke! The information you have on this branch of the family is really interesting and has been really useful as well as intriguing! i just wondered if you had got any further in your research and also if you had any photos of John Jackson or his father that you would be willing to share? My husband is the grandson of John's son, Terence.

Jo

Hi and welcome to the forum.

The original poster has not been on the forum since March but I hope they have notifications enabled when somebody responds to their messages and if so will come and reply.

jojo26

I have just seen your message. I have sent you a personal message with my email address. That's if I've done it correctly. Hopefully you'll see it, if not please respond here.

Suds