Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi all,

I'm a new member and haven't used one of these sites before, so please bear with me...

Joseph Ambrose married Catherine Cearns in Liverpool, in May, 1882; witnessed by his father, also named as joseph, address given as Naylor street. Age stated as 26, trade, Carter, and there the mystery begins when trying to unravel the past.

Geographically, the immediate local area to Naylor street plays a big part in what could be the variuos links. e.g.a certain Joseph Ambrose was brought up by Ellen Jenkins who eventually moved to Gasgoyne Street where Joseph eventually rejoins what was left of the familly. A Joseph Ambrose is listed as a lodger at another house in Gasgoyne street in 1881, trade - carter, but he has the wrong date of birth, question is, did he lie at the wedding? maybe, anyway, you get the drift..........
Should someone be able to shed some light on a perplexing search, I should be most grateful.

Regards

1judoka1

Hi there

Joseph the witness can't be his father as his father must have died ..Ellen his mother married Samuel Jenkins in 1856 at St Nicolas & St Ann

In 1861 he is working as a servant in Oxton on the Wirral aged 13 born Liverpool (source familysearch) he is down as Cambrose.

At home in Gascoyne St 1861 is his mum Ellen b c1816 and brother Henry b c1847 both born Liverpool

1871 hes back in Gascoyne St with mum and brother

I am wondering if you have the marriage cert or are going from Family search were it has grooms father Joseph Ambrose...

Hi 1JUDOKAI and a warm welcome
Do you have him in 1891 census with Catherine?
Good find Col, the marriage of Ellen and census too.

Here's the blended family in 1851
Samuel Jenkin 43 bn Bhead, carter
Ellen 35 wife, Mary Jenkin 17 dghtr both bn Lpool
Richard Ambrose 9, Mary 7, Henry 5, Joseph 3 step children, all bn Lpool
Thomas Jenkin 6 mnths
Sis in law Elizabeth Howard 30yrs wid charwoman bn Lpl.
3 Maguire St Lpool (Howard St)

colette wrote:I am wondering if you have the marriage cert or are going from Family search were it has grooms father Joseph Ambrose...

That is a good thought Colette, unfortunately the marriage took place at St Peter's (per LancsBMD) presumably during that period which is missing from the online databases so we are not able to check it.

If you could get to the Record Office it will be on microfilm and so save you the cost of a certificate.

He must have died between 1882 and 1891 as Catherine is a widow at Blackstock St two children Henry & Catherine ages 6 & 4.

I think this is his death Liverpool 1888 aged 38 which makes him born c 1852, but as we know he was born c1849 hes only lied a wee bit ..looks like Catherine was born in 1864. so he proberbly didnt want to put her off by saying his true age..

Dear all

well, you are proactive, I'm impressed! Yes I do have the marriage cert and you are on the right track. My mistake is saying that Joseph Ambrose was a witness. The witnessess were Martin and Mary McGovern. Ive checked and in 1881 a Catherine Tearns was listed as a lodger at their address in Naylor street. I cannot find a Catherine Cearns, so that would appear to be a mistake by someone.

I don't know anything about the wedding on FAMILY SEARCH....so that's interesting....

My best quess is that he is likely to be the right person in that GASGOYNE and NAYLOR are so close. Catherine Ambrose did live in Blackstock street but i coudn't find Joseph or death information, so that all helps. The children who lived there are verified by the family (I'm reaserching this on behalf of my ex wife - now good friends!!)
Anything else that can be done??

Many thanks

Judoka

Hi Judoka


Its just a case of taking a few years of himself and why not..hes proberbly thourght god i am 30+ in 1881 and still not married..then he meets someone and tells a little lie..feel like doing it myself haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


xx

Col
I found the death and Catherine 28, wid with kiddies.
She was younger than Joseph perhaps that's why he told porkies?
Judoka, when you research Ireland, their ages can be out by 10 years
I looked in Lancs BMD on the off chance she re-married.
There is a death Lpool rego in 1898 aged 34yrs.
btw LancsBMD have updated their entries, huge amount for births.
Catherine jr who was 4 in 1891 her baptism in Anx at St Peter's family at
Blackstock St. bn 3.4.1887 bapt 11.10.1887
Possibly a servant 14yrs in 1901 census.
The people are the courts in Burlington St, not wealthy enough to employ her but she
may just have a room with them.
Found a Henry who was 6 in 1891, in 1901 nephew of Molloy family. Not sure if correct one.
The witnesses to the marriage were the people Catherine was lodging with in 1881.

Catherine jr may have married Michael Gibbons.

Hi Guys

All good stuff! This particular side of the Ambrose family eventually moved out to Norris Green and there is a direct link to HENRY, son of Catherine.

The family are totally unaware of 'new' cousins who may still be in the Liverpool area as their grandfather never mentioned them, so that will prove interesting.

The next quest is to find Joseph Ambrose who fathered the children to Ellen (who married Samuel Jenkins). A member of the family is going into Liverpool to attempt to access, say, marriage records, but where they are to go to is not yet known; does anyone have a suggestion? - the wedding must have been, say, around 1840, somewhere in the local area (given that Ellen was born in Liverpool)

Any advise and quidance appreciated in this detective story.

Regards

Judoka

The place to research will be the Record Office which is temporarily held at the World Museum on William Brown Street (2nd floor, follow the footsteps).

You need to verify your findings step by step.

First off Look at St Peter's for the marriage of Joseph Ambrose and Catherine Cearns in Liverpool, in May, 1882, to verify who his father definitely was.

Hmmmm I thought I'd check the baptisms - Richard seemed to be quite straightforward - haven't I heard Maguire Street mentioned?

On 24 April, 1842 Richard was baptised in St Nicholas, son of William & Ellen Ambrose, of Maguire Street father's occupation Carter.

On 24 March, 1842 Richard Ambrose was born and baptised on 22 March, 1842 at St Martin in the Field, Liverpool, address Maguire Street father's occupation Labourer.

So then you need to look for the marriage of Samuel Jenkins and Ellen Ambrose, which took place in Q1 1850 also at St Nicholas. This will give you Ellen's father's name, which hopefully will be her maiden name, and also to be able to check if it's the same Ellen who married William Ambrose ...... when? and where? at present I'm at a loss to know. I wonder if you will find that her father was also somebody Ambrose.

Hi Mary
IGI have the marriage of Ellen Ambrose to Samuel Jenkins
17 Feb 1850 at St Nicks.

Thanks Tina, the exact date will make it easier to search the Register. Sadly the IGI doesn't have any fathers details for either of them...... I wonder if that is because there was a blank? Only checking the actual register will show that.

I've been away for the last week otherwise I would have replied before.


I have an enormous amount of information on the Ambrose family including I am sure this branch. I have to go and get some shopping but will be back later with the ancestry of this family.

I thought you would prick your ears up when you heard that name.

I've had a quick look and yes I have this branch documented to a degree. If you could pm me with your email address I will sort something out for you. It won't be until tomorrow.

The information that has been found for you is correct. I can take the Ambrose line back to the 1600s if you wish.

My boiler has failed whilst I was away so I'm huddled over a convector heater. Sadly didn't discover it until after 5pm!! Fortunately I have a couple of convector heaters so will be OK until tomorrow.

Hi

many thanks, hope the boiler gets fixed!

I did try this last night but the system didn't work, bit of a puzzle.


Main thing at the moment is to get back to Joseph Ambrose who married Ellen........I'm intersted with regards to the 1600's

Regards

Judoka

I have noted your email so please remove it from here so you don't get lots of scam.

Firstly Joseph didn't marry Ellen.

Ellen Ambrose married Samuel Jenkins on 17 Febrauary 1850 at St Peter Liverpool

She was born Ellen Howard and married William Ambrose on 25 December 1836 at st Nicholas Church Liverpool. The witnesses were his brother Thomas Ambrose and soon to be sister in law Ann Wearing.

William and Ellen had Richard born 21 March 1842 and christened twice as found above.
They also had a daughter Mary abt 1844, Henry about 1846, and Joseph in 1848. William died in 1847/8/9 (not sure of exact date)

In 1841 William and Ellen are in Maguire Street with no children, by 1851 Ellen is with Samuel In Maguire Street. 1861 only Henry Ambrose is with Samuel and Ellen, 1871 Ellen just has Henry and Joseph living with her but sharing the house is her son Richard and his family.

Unfortunately the Liverpool Mercury of 11 November 1879 reports the sad case of the manslaughter of Ellen who was described as a violent drunken woman. She was killed on 26 July 1879. I have the copy and can scan it later.

Richard married Elizabeth Morgan 11 October 1865 at St Simon Liverpool. They had 8 children of whom only some survived.

Mary married Edward P Molloy on 27 March 1871 at All Souls Vauxhall.

Joseph was lodging at 34 Gascoigne Street in 1881. He was unmarried and a carter. In 1882 he married Catherine Cearns.

On 4 March 1890 Joseph appears to have entered the workhouse giving his addressas Lambert Street and his next of kin as his brother Richard of Lambert Street. He died in the workhouse on 14 June 1871.

I think Joseph brother Henry died in 1871. Richard definitely had children and descendants to the present day. I'll dig them out later.

I have to work out how to send you a tree. The fingers are cold so I'll stop now. Still awaiting boiler repairman.

Many thanks Hilary,

I am a little confused in that the marriage cert of joseph and catherine, Joseph Ambrose is given as the father??

I have followed Richard through to his son, also richard, moving out to the west derby district (everton area) but thomas is a problem because I can't prove a link. I do have a family line from a thomas (who was a postman) but there is no proof, but that isn't the real quest, it's the joseph bit that is confusing. Perhaps he was called william joseph and preferred joseph??

Anyway, thanks again.

I look forward to yuor reply.

David (judoka)

Is Henry Ambrose the son of Joseph and Catherine living with Patrick and Mary Molloy in the 1901 census?

What occupation is given on Joseph's marriage certificate for both him and his father?

I think it is quite likely that Joseph didn't know his father's name as his father William died shortly after his birth.