Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi,
If SKP is heading for the Records Office in the nearish future I'd very much appreciate help in checking an industrial school's records for a 'missing person'.

The background:
Joseph Fry was born 14th Nov. 1894; baptised St Francis Xavier 5th May 1896;
Parents: Thomas and Elizabeth Fry [nee Pierce].

His parents 'disappear' between 1896 and the 1901 census, believed to have emigrated. But in 1901 Joseph appears to be in the Kirkdale Industrial School listed as a pauper. He hasn't been found in the 1911 so may have been among the many unfortunate children shipped off to Canada.

I understand that Kirkdale closed in 1904 but there are records which may give reasons for Joseph's admission and what happened to him etc. The relevant records are 353-SEL/24 and 353-SEL/24/6.

No rush... TVM in advance..

DS

http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passengerLi ... on?redef=0

Has these entries but you will have to buy credits to view the full entries

Thomas Fry b 1874 departed Liverpool for Quebec 1899
E Fry (female) b 1871 departed Liverpool for Quebec 1899

Here's a link to the Canadian 1901/1911 censuses

www.automatedgenealogy.com

Hi DS,

I went to Liv RO yesterday, I didn't have much time to look things up, I had a brief look, for Joseph Fry, but I think I kept getting the wrong film reels, I am sure they go up to 1907!

I don't know if Joseph was sent off to Canada or anywhere, but maybe next visit I will try and find him.

Here is a great link for the "Home Children"

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... echildren/

Jan

I think I have found the right Ref to look for now at Liv RO.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/ ... =19-3#19-3

Register: Boys 353 SEL 24/7 Dec. 1898 - Mar. 1904

Jan

That's great of you Jan to do these look ups.
Well done mate for caring and giving up your time.

Tina

CaroleW wrote:http://www.findmypast.co.uk/passengerLi ... on?redef=0

Has these entries but you will have to buy credits to view the full entries

Thomas Fry b 1874 departed Liverpool for Quebec 1899
E Fry (female) b 1871 departed Liverpool for Quebec 1899

Here's a link to the Canadian 1901/1911 censuses

www.automatedgenealogy.com

Hi Carole,
TVM for those. I have Findmypast but my searching hadn't thrown up either of those hits. From the details they were apparently both single and she left on the 15th of June 1899 while he went on the 4th of November. His occupation is given as labourer, but in 81 and 91 and at his marriage he is a driver (usually of railway vans). And my Thomas was born 1864, while Elizabeth was born 1865. Did they fib about their ages when emigrating?

I suppose that given the trauma of losing 3 or 4 children in almost as many years may have caused them to split and put young Joseph into Kirkdale.

Next stop the Canadian censuses!
TVM again.

DS

jan44 wrote:

I think I have found the right Ref to look for now at Liv RO.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/a2a/ ... =19-3#19-3

Register: Boys 353 SEL 24/7 Dec. 1898 - Mar. 1904

Jan

Hello Jan,
As Tina implies, you are a beaut! Thank you for the look-ups. Very much appreciated. According to the NA blurb, those records should tell me almost everything I want to know. But as I said before... no rush.

DS

Also check the Liverpool Workhouse register which will give even more information Ie addresses where admitted from. Not been able to get down to records for last 4 weeks. Family nightmare is now over, back to normality for me.

Sorry to read about family probs Katie.
Good to know "Normal service will be resumed as soon as possible".

You're a good 'un.

Tina

Thanks Katie,

Off Topic:

Nice to meet you today at Liverpool RO, thanks for your help there!

DS,

The records we are looking for are kept at Sandhills.

Jan

Hi Katie and welcome back!
Thank you in advance for the pending look-see for Joseph Fry at Kirkdale.

DS

353 SEL 19/59 Admission and Discharge Register Liverpool Workhouse

7154-28th July 1898 Fry Joseph 5yrs-Child found in Mill Lane- No particulars discharged 14th October 1898 to Kirkdale School see 6897.

6897- 27th July 1899-Fry William- 12yrs- 27 Mill Road-C of E Parents 27, Mill Lane, discharged 18th August 1899 to Kirkdale Industrial School. See 7154

(I have transcribed as it was written. I think the address is 27, Mill Lane- checked 1901 no Frys listed there.)

Kirkdale Industirial School Records.

I found this entry

27th-Nov-1896

Joseph Fry 2yrs
John Fry 10yrs
William Fry 7yrs

Mother in house (Mother was in Brownlow Hill) discharged from the Industrial School 12th-Dec-1896 to Workhouse.

Kirkdale Industrial School Admission and Discharge Registers

7154- Fry Joseph 5yrs Admitted from Workhouse Parents unknown religion unknown discharged 10th-Nov-1903 to CH. I think this is Olive Mount Cottage Homes however you will also have to check Fazackerley Cottage Homes. According the the minutes of The Industrial School 98 children were transfered to Olive Mount Cottage Homes at the time of Joseph's discharge.

William's entry

18th-Aug-1899 Fry William 12yrs Father Town (This could mean he was in the slammer. Maybe worthwhile checking the paper to see if the parents may have made an appearence for child neglect). Religion CofE discharged 4th-Sept-1903 Died.

Looked in the 18 SEL register

27th-Jul-1899 William Fry 27, Mill Road-12yrs CofE Father Thomas Fry CofE Mother Elizabeth 27, Mill Lane.

There seems to have been religion issues with this family as I found this entry in the minutes.
Permission was given for a boy named William Fry to be visited by the Roman Catholic Clergy 19th-May-1903.

Hope this helps DS

Hello Katie,
Many many thanks for that transcription of the records. Initial reaction is "Oh what a tangled web we weave......".

That address at the bottom of your post, 27 Mill Lane, jumped out at me because it was the home of my g.g.mother Elizabeth Fry in 1901. She was Thomas Fry's mother. So the child William, whom I haven't come across before, is a child of Thomas and Elizabeth Fry [nee Pierce].

Births Mar 1890: Fry, William - W. Derby - 8b - 349.
Baptised at St Joseph's, 1890, but Liverpool History Projects have the father's name as William. Probably a transcription error.

In 1901, there are 2 William Frys about the same age. One is in West Derby Union Cottage Homes, the other in Kirkdale Industrial School, the same place as the young Joseph I was/am chasing. Looks as though the latter is Joseph's brother.

Sadly, as if separation from parents wasn't enough....
Deaths Sep 1903: Fry, William - 16 - W. Derby - 8b - 285.

I am pondering what was going on in the family of Thomas and Elizabeth Fry? I know that his father John died in 1877 in Rainhill County Asylum at the age of 35. His medical and autopsy record show he died from Arachnoiditis, an incurable inflammation of the arachnoid membrane that covers the outer surface of the brain. This causes symptoms such as epilepsy, blindness, deafness, and spastic paralysis of the limbs. Primary cause of the condition is a blow, or repeated blows, to the head. The medical record states his wife Elizabeth had him admitted to Rainhill in 1875 because of epileptic fits. John had been a horse-drawn cab driver but had a serious drink problem. His symptoms appeared after several falls from his cab due to intoxication. So since Thomas was an only son, was it a case of like father, like son, and he had a drink problem as well?

What you have found shows that William and Joseph's parents were at 27 Mill Lane in July 1899 and by April 1901 they had dropped off the radar. And there may have been a son John...

Talk about the 'plot thickens'....

Thanks again Katie, great result. Much appreciated.

DS

Not a transcription error on behalf of the Liverpool History Projects.
Haven't found any entries in the Old Newspapers for a Thomas Fry either, sorry.

There appears to be a few Fry baptisms - do you have them all?

Elizabeth Fry 6 Oct 1884 Oct 1884 St Nicholas Thomae Fry, Elizabeth Pierce
Elizabeth Fry 4 Jan 1893 19 Aug 1893 Sacred Heart Thomae Fry, Elizabeth Pierce
Josephus Fry 14 Nov 1894 5 May 1896 St Francis Xavier´s (Francisci Xavarii) Thomae Fry, Elizabeth Pierce
Petrus Fry Sep 1887 19 Oct 1891 St Brigid Thoma Fry, Eliabetha Pierse

Interesting combination of surnames on some baptisms father Sarsfield, mother Fry. Interested?

MaryA wrote:Interesting combination of surnames on some baptisms father Sarsfield, mother Fry. Interested?

Hi Mary,
Alway interested! But if father is James Sarsfield and mother Ada Fry I probably already have them.
John Thomas; James Duffy; Albert Michael; Ada Elsie; Ernest John; Edith Maude [my favourite aunt!] and Stanley Fry.

James was my paternal g.father and spouse Ada was sister to the odd-ball (at least I think so) Thomas, husband of Elizabeth Pierce.

TVM

DS

MaryA wrote:There appears to be a few Fry baptisms - do you have them all?

Elizabeth Fry 6 Oct 1884 Oct 1884 St Nicholas Thomae Fry, Elizabeth Pierce
Elizabeth Fry 4 Jan 1893 19 Aug 1893 Sacred Heart Thomae Fry, Elizabeth Pierce
Josephus Fry 14 Nov 1894 5 May 1896 St Francis Xavier´s (Francisci Xavarii) Thomae Fry, Elizabeth Pierce
Petrus Fry Sep 1887 19 Oct 1891 St Brigid Thoma Fry, Eliabetha Pierse

Hi Mary,
Yes, I have dem der baptisms. There's also a Joseph, father Thomas, mother Catherine Pierce [an error I think], and a William, father William?, mother Elizabeth Pierce.

And re this from Katie's post:

There seems to have been religion issues with this family as I found this entry in the minutes.
Permission was given for a boy named William Fry to be visited by the Roman Catholic Clergy 19th-May-1903.

I now believe, having found a death in the following quarter that the boy may have been incurably ill and was being given the last rites.
Deaths Sep 1903: Fry, William - 16 - W. Derby - 8b - 285.

I seem to have uncovered a very 'unhappy' family...

DS

Very well done Katie, brilliant work,

Thanks for doing the look-ups.

Cheers

Jan

I only did the additional search with mother Elizabeth, however the image for the one with father William is on the page previous for you, have you missed that message?