DAVIES SARAH AND NORAH

Post by **Sue H** » 22 Nov 2011 11:39

good morning, have just found your site and wondered if anyone can help me. I am looking for my grandmothers family...her name is Sarah Davies born in toxteth between 1904-1908...marriage certificate and death certificate differ, dont know which is right. Her father was John William Davies, mother unknown but possibly called Sarah. Her father is down on the marraige certificate as Proffessional Dancer. She had a sister Nora who married Sydney Usher in 1948 he died in 1950. There is possibly another sister called Jessie who married a Charles Wooding, we think. They lived in Brookhill street, toxteth until 1926 when nan and grandad moved to County Round when my dad, richard william hughes was born in 1926. I recently found my grandads family and to my amazement he has a huge family (richard william Hughes) 9 brothers and sisters, we always thought he was an only child. Does any of this sound familiar to them, if possible can anyone help me. I am planning a trip to the museam when i get some definiate information to allow me to look in the census there, until then I seem to be hitting a brick wall.

Post by **dickiesam** » 22 Nov 2011 12:42

Hello Sue and welcome,
First, it is not that unusual for there to be a difference of a couple of years or more in ages [and hence YoBs] on marriage and death certs. No proof of birth date was needed back then.

Second, you say she had a sister Nora. Do you know when and where she was born?

As a start point we need to find at least one family member in a census so hopefully one of Sarah's siblings was born before 1901. That's the census we are 'free' to search. The later census is restricted to 'related' parties only, in other words third party look-ups are not allowed.

DS

EDIT TO ASK: Did Sarah have a second forename or initial?

Post by **Sue H** » 22 Nov 2011 13:17

Hi, many thanks for replying, just found the membership form so printed it off and sending. I have started a tree on Ancestry and all the details we had on the death certificate gave her birthday as 7th April 1908 (making her 17 when she got married) She doesnt have a middle name, but on occassions she spelt her name as Sara. We think she was probably pregnant, dad was born 6th december. Nora possibley Norah May was born in 1904 she married Sydney Usher. Somebody gave me a hint that they were possibly the grandchildren of a William Davies and Sara Davies (nee Smart ) this has given me(IF TRUE) a wonderful family of relations going back to Ellen Smart a British Citizen born in Bombay!! Someone told me that Jessie (born Dec 1901) father possibly John Williams (like nans) was in the 1901 census with Sara and William Jones (Sara remarried... William Jones when William Davies died) William and Sara had 2 sons Charles William and John William (both on cencus as step children of William Jones) this is the john william I hope is my great grandfather. Liffey Street seems to feature alot and grandads family lived in Brookhill street. Brookhill street is the address grandad and nan gave as their address on the marraige certificate. I am planning a visit to Liverpool to try and search out the addresses. Was there any other census after 1911. This has now become an obbsession, my nan and grandad only had 2 sons, my dad and my uncle Ron, both are now dead Ronnie had no family so I am now stuck.

Post by **dickiesam** » 22 Nov 2011 13:45

Someone told me that Jessie (born Dec 1901) father possibly John Williams (like nans) was in the 1901 census with Sara and William Jones

There's a problem... The 1901 census was taken on the 31st of March 1901 so Jessie couldn't have been enumerated, although possibly as a twinkle in her father's eye.

From 1841, although there were censuses before then but almost nothing has survived, there has been a census every ten years apart from 1941 because of WW2. The next census to come up for public 'viewing' will be the 1921 in about 10 years time, we hope.

Do all the children's marriage certs show the father, John William Davies, as a 'professional dancer'? And do any of the certs show him as deceased?

That occupation could indicate a number of 'jobs', a stage dancer or a 'ball room' competitor, or even a male dancer 'for hire' at a ballroom/dance hall. And he could have taken up dancing later in life, long after the birth of the children. So he may not have been a dancer in any available census.

Have you tried looking for baptisms for any of the children? There's only one Liverpool birth for a Jessie in the Dec qtr of 1901. Births Dec 1901: Davies, Jessie Marian - W. Derby - 8b - 523.

At some stage you are going to have to buy copies of BMD certs and the above could be a starter. Sometimes it is the wrong cert, but that goes with the 'territory'. If it is the right cert, in other words, the right father, it will give you a hook to hang more research on.

You can buy certs online here: http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certi ... efault.asp
They cost £9.25 each including postage and usually take 5 to 7 days.

DS

Post by **Sue H** » 22 Nov 2011 14:47

Well thats that one scuppered.....not the right Jessie, althought the grandmother she was living with had a huge family and the many names were used over and over

! Nans marriage certificate shows john william davies, as deceased, havent sent for Norah yet but she is the witness at the marraige along with grandads brother.Got what i thought was nans birth certificate but the fathers name was george so wrong and so was the date of birth So will need to send for Norahs birth certificate and maybe marriage certificate. There was also a birth in 1908 of a Sara Davies, in toxteth maybe I will send for that.

Once again many thanks.........glad I found this site, cheques in the post as they say!!!

Post by **MaryA** » 22 Nov 2011 15:44

Hi and welcome to the forum.

Before you rush off to order certificates, take a breath.

If you have a subs to Ancestry, and I think you might since you have done a lot of research, then try for baptisms first.

Then consider applying to the Liverpool Register Office before approaching the GRO, and advising them of the details of the father's name, state that you don't want the certificate unless the father is correct.

If they don't come up with the goods, then you can try the GRO since you never know, but they may have been born outside Liverpool, but I would think the Liverpool Reg. Office will come up with the goods.

PS Do you have any details from Norah's marriage certificate? It seems quite old to have been married for the first time.

richard william hughes was born in 1926

What date ? I was checking for the mother's maiden name but unfortunately I don't see an entry for him, unless she was "Hayes".

Post by **simone** » 22 Nov 2011 17:50

Evening all

Mary, there is Richard W Hughes born Mar q 1927, mmn Davies, West Derby

born 6 Dec

Post by **MaryA** » 22 Nov 2011 19:54

Trust me not to be thorough enough, I should have thought of the next quarter.

Post by **dickiesam** » 22 Nov 2011 19:56

Hi Sue,
I don't think you have yet given us your Nan's marriage? You say she didn't have a second forename and appeared to be 17 when she married. Taking 1908 as her birth year gives this marriage...
Marriages Sep 1925 - W.Derby - 8b - 1011: Davies, Sarah and Morgan, William.
Would that be correct? And her father is deceased on this certificate?

DS

Post by **MaryA** » 22 Nov 2011 20:44

Isn't grandad Hughes? Would this be the one?
Sarah Davies to Richard W Hughes Bootle Christ Church, 1926

Post by **Tina** » 23 Nov 2011 10:05

So much to search for, you've done well folks.
Just to add, a mention of Ellen J Smart 58 who was born in Bombay,
she's in 1891 census with 2 children & Taylors whom her daughter married into.
St Dunstan's West Derby.

Tina

Post by **Alison C** » 23 Nov 2011 13:47

Hello,

Someone told me that Jessie (born Dec 1901) father possibly John Williams (like nans) was in the 1901 census with Sara and William Jones

Searching the 1911 Census index for any Davies living with a Sara West gives a Jessie May Davies b 1902. So it looks like the connection to Sara West Davies / Jones is correct

FamilySearch has an entry for the baptism of John William Davies, son of William and Sarah West on 26 May 1878 at St Nathaniels in Liverpool.

The 1881 Census shows John Davis (aged 3) living in 4 Harvey Street, West Derby with parents William (a plumber) and Sarah.

There is an entry in FreeBMD for the death of John W Davies aged 37 in Q4 1915 in West Derby. He is buried in Toxteth Park Cemetery section 11 grave 149. Address 48 Thames Street, Toxteth Park. In the same grave are:

Elizabeth Davies, 12 July 1891, aged 14
John Francis Davies, 26 November 1907, aged 7
William Davies, plumber, 4 January 1886, aged 29 (John William's dad)
Olive Jane Taylor, 6 March 1895, aged 30 (nee Smart so likely a relation of Sara West)
Lilian Elizabeth Davies, 20 July 1912, aged 2 months (mother's name was Roberts. There is a marriage of Charles Davies to Harriett Roberts in 1908 in WD so this could be their child)

There is also an entry on the CWGC site confirming John W died on 24 December 1915.

As regards, John W's wife, there is a marriage in 1901 on Family Search for John William Davies (born 1878, father William Davies) to a Florence Finney. Can't see anything in the 1911 free index to say Florence living with either Sarah or Norah so not sure if this is the right marriage.

Alison

Post by **Sue H** » 23 Nov 2011 20:02

I am overwhelmed with everyones help thank you......going to read this carefully and try to work it out.

What I found so far

Nora.......only tied her birthday in with details of death and marriage. She didnt marry till late and never remarried after, this I am 100% sure of as we had alot to do with her as my sister and i were growing up. She died in a hospic in old swan where we went every week to visit her. They lived in Bootle I think. Sydney Usher havent look to much in depth yet.

Sara (Sarah) Davies .....I have her death certificate and her birthday is down as the 8th April 1908. So very suprise when marriage certificate came thro that she was 21 in 1926. I know the certificate is right as Nora and on of grandads brothers are witness.

I have not been able to find any baptisms for them.

The tree on Ancestry did have a John William and Charles William Davies, thier mother remarried after the death of William Davies, to William Jones.
While I was waiting for the marriage certificate I work really hard on this going backwards and as I say found all these wonderful people from Bombay but I cant link John Williams to Sarah or Norah, no matter how I try.

I am now going to ready all these answers and see if something will connect them.......once again many many thanks and I look forward to the benifits of subscribtions soon

Post by **Sue H** » 23 Nov 2011 22:43

Worked hard tonight what I have found and what I have re instated

Ellen M Smart 1832-1914 and John L Smart 1815-1877 had a big family 14 children at last count...seem to be finding more when I look closer at census. The John Francis buried with the others, I have seen on a census somewhere with in the things i have saved but sods law can not find him this evening.

Have check baptism for Jessie, Norah and Sarah nothing!! What would be the best now, send for Norah marriage certificate, death certificate or what we believe to be her birth certificate

Will try again tomorrow with fresh head........once again many thanks for all your help

Post by **dickiesam** » 24 Nov 2011 11:46

With no real breakthrough so far I thought I'd try a different approach. We know John William Davies was dead by 1926 when his daughter Sarah married. We know he was alive 1908ish when we think he fathered a child, so looked for deaths between 1908 and 1926 in Liverpool. There are only four with an age that would put them in the frame as a father before 1911. The middle two look promising. Can anyone track them into the grave?

Deaths Mar 1911: Davies, John W 50 W.Derby 8b 345
Deaths Sep 1912: Davies, John W 31 Liverpool 8b 118
Deaths Dec 1915: Davies, John W 37 W. Derby 8b 749
Deaths Dec 1918: Davies, John W 52 W.Derby 8b 771

Checked this one in case it was another of his children.
Deaths Mar 1914: Davies, John W 0 W. Derby 8b 411
Found 2 births that fit; maiden names of Whittle [reg Liverpool] and Chambers [reg Toxteth Pk].

DS

Post by **Alison C** » 24 Nov 2011 12:04

Hi,

Sorry...should have said in my earlier post....the John William Davies in Toxteth Park was buried on 30 December 1915 which fits in with the Q4 1915 death. The age on the burial entry is 37 years which also fits in with this death.

Alison

Post by **Sue H** » 25 Nov 2011 14:53

Hi Everyone

The details of the grave in toxteth have been a good fit with names on Sara West Davies/Jones family tree. John Francis is there somewhere I know because I have seen it. What I have found is that Sara West seems to have been a lovely soul who took in all manner of family waifs and strays. On the census going back to Ellen Smart she seem to have put up family as the came from down south to Liverpool. Olive Jane was her sister, there is also a Clara Jane that may or may not morph into Olive because I had Olive's children as Clara's on my tree both marrying a taylor and seeming to have children with same name!! but the grave sorted that one out. I think Clara may have married a taylor also, but I will go back to them if I find my nans connected to the family as a whole.

My journey started because of my baby book.......in it it had my nans parents as SARA AND JOHN DAVIES...........and my grandads parents as JOHN FREDRICK DAVIES AND HONORA DAVIES. When we found my grandads family (RICHARD WILLIAM HUGES) it was a shock, we thought he was an only child, possibly adopted because of the different names.... I now know he had a large family and I am now in regualar contact with one of his brothers daughter and son in law. We know from them that he disappeared from the family fold around the time he married......until I popped up on Teds email to ask why he had my grandad in amongst all these children. Apparently I broke a 20 year puzzle he had tried to solve.

We have tried putting Sara Davies in as mother and Honora and John Fredrick in as grandparent......Nothing yet tho

Also there is a Sara Davies born in Toxteth same pages as a Sarah Davies in West Derby in April 1908.....maybe this is nan. What I am going to do is order, Sara Davies BC and Nora's marraige certificate and see if that turns up anything.

Nan and grandad where married on the 27th March 1926 in Christ Church Bootle......address they gave 79 Brookhill Road Bootle

I am also going to Liverpool to go thro the records, concentrating on Liffey Street where Sara West hung out and Brookhill Road bootle where grandad family was.

Also I have a picture of grandad in a uniform (2nd World War) that nobody seems to reconize. We now he was with Cunard for most of his life and when my full membership comes thro I would be grateful if you kind people can give it the once over for me.

Dickiesam.........the two births you found were they Sara and Nora with different mothers will have a go at playing around with this one

Finally SARA WEST Davies/Jones seems a kind soul, could it be possible that after the fathers death they lived with her......could I find this out somehow in Liverpool, can you view the 1911 census in Liverpool ?

Anyway I will plod on many thanks once again

Post by **dickiesam** » 25 Nov 2011 15:11

Dickiesam.........the two births you found were they Sara and Nora with different mothers will have a go at playing around with this one

Sorry Sue, must be the day that is in it....

Which 2 births are you referring to?

DS

Post by **MaryA** » 26 Nov 2011 09:43

dickiesam wrote: Sorry Sue, must be the day that is in it....

That's a good Irish phrase then

Sue we are happy to help anyway, but so glad you have decided to join the Society, any chance of you coming along to some of the meetings? second Tuesday of each month at the Quaker Meeting House in School Lane, we'd love to see you, and if you are going to the World Museum to check out the records there, a Tuesday afternoon is probably the best time too as that is when the Help Desk is there.

At present the 1911 census isn't available in the Liverpool Record Office, depending on how much you think you might use it, you could either take a subscription to Findmypast, each of their packages include the 1911 census, or alternatively you can purchase credits at http://www.1911census.co.uk/

We look forward to hearing what you discover from the certificates, hoping they resolve a couple of problems.

Post by **dickiesam** » 26 Nov 2011 15:30

Sue,
I echo MaryA's welcome at your decision to join the society. And may I offer a little advice... go after one 'name' at a time.

Once you have put the information you are certain about, and have confirmed with the source documents, the BMD certs etc, into your new tree, select one person in the line that you want to know more about, for instance when and where they were born, married or died, and concentrate your search on that person for a while. When you run into a brick wall [aka problem] with that person, put them to one side and chase another one. But don't chase two or three people at the same time. The crew here will always be on hand to help with the brick walls.

DS