Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I am hoping to solve a mystery that has been bugging me for ages.
In my family tree I have a Jane Williams born abt 1879 in Oldham to James Williams and Sarah Ellen Barden.
In 1891 she appears to be in the above school, and I have tried to find out what exactly the school was, ie was it an orphanage? was it for kids whose parents had gone to USA or prison etc.
Jane's father had died when she was a baby and her mother had remarried William Crowther in Oldham in 1883, but he died in 1891 as far as I can gather, in Oldham. I have ordered the death cert but not received it yet ;perhaps Sarah murdered her husbands ;-(
After this census I can't find Jane Williams nor her mother, Sarah Ellen Crowther. I have spent a long time searching.
If I knew what type of school it was in Nile St, I might be able to work out what happened.

Kathy

Hi and welcome to the forum. There is mention of the school on this site http://liverpool-schools.co.uk/html/d_-_k.html Also if you go to the Liverpool Records Office site and search for Nile Street, you will find that there are in the archives documents relating to the Liverpool Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. 1883-1957 (Ref 179 CRU) I don't know for sure that this is the same place, but this is a quote from the records.

"According to the minutes of a meeting of a General Committee held on 1 October 1883 6 Nile Street had been adapted into a Shelter in which children found wandering the streets could be temporarily housed."

"Access will be granted to any accredited reader. 179 CRU/6/1 contains personal sensitive information of children and not available for public inspection for 100 years. This is in accordance with Section 1 (Principles 1,2 and 7) of the Data Protection Act 1998. " so there may be records that would be available for you to research. I would suggest you telephone and check since you may need to order them at the Sandhills Satellite Office.

Thankyou so much for such a quick reply, and I will check out the links. The school was at 13/15 Nile St according to the census, so maybe not the same as number 6 Nile St. I forgot to mention that in my first message. Also it was all girls, mainly teenagers
I also put my question on the wrong board so was surprised to get an answer at all!
Thanks again. If I find anything interesting I'll report back.

Kathy

MaryA wrote: "According to the minutes of a meeting of a General Committee held on 1 October 1883 6 Nile Street had been adapted into a Shelter in which children found wandering the streets could be temporarily housed."

.

Hi Kathy welcome to the forum sorry I'm of no help, but interesting tale.. how sad wonder if it will be of relevance to your search

Mary.. for a minute I nearly read Sarah Ellen as Cahill

Simone x

Have checked out the school, and it seems just a normal boarding school, so I am not going to think about children wandering the streets!
Thanks to you both for welcoming me to this site
Kathy

The school is actually a Certified Industrial School It appears to be Holy Trinity Industrial School

There is information on Industrial schools on www.workhouses.org.uk site

Very often children were put in these because they were in moral danger or had committed a criminal act.

Thanks for the link:
'after the passing of the 1857 Industrial Schools Act, the term Industrial School was primarily used for establishments used to house vagrant, destitute and disorderly children who were considered in danger of becoming criminals or who were in contact with prostitutes'

I am going off the idea that this is my Jane, she seems a bit unlike the rest of the family! Think I'd better check if another Jane Williams from Oldham could have been placed there!!
Very grateful for all the help, and impressed by your site.
Kathy

Hi Kathy,
Re:

After this census I can't find Jane Williams nor her mother, Sarah Ellen Crowther. I have spent a long time searching.

Which census are you referring to? Would you post the census reference where you last had a sighting of Sarah and Jane, please?

DS

OK Dickiesam,
Sorry not to be more precise! I am not sure how to post the refs.

I have Jane on the 1891 census, in Liverpool:
RG12/2917
Sub-registration district: Mount Pleasant
ED, institution, or vessel: 21
Piece: 2917
Folio: 54
Page Number: 45

In 1881 we have Sarah Ellen (née Barden) widow of James Williams.
with her baby daughter, Jane.
RG 11/4073
Registration district: Oldham
Sub-registration district: Oldham Below Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 40
Piece: 4073
Folio: 47
Page Number: 4

In 1883 Sarah Ellen remarried to Wm Crowther and I have the certificate. She was still in Oldham. This 2nd husband Wm died in 1891 in Oldham, I believe. I have ordered the certificate but not received yet. I cannot find Sarah Ellen Crowther in 1891 nor any other census.
Sorry if that is confusing, and I hope the references are poss to follow.
Kathy
thanks for all the help!

It might be possible to find a way to check by address - let us know the details from the certificate when it arrives, fingers crossed it was Sarah Ellen who registered the death.

I would think it's likely that jane married in the Liverpool area after she was allowed to leave the school. I'd start having a look at marriages.

Maybe a search for a Jane born Oldham living Liverpool aged 22ish?

Hi Kathy,
You got the census reference correct. It is often written in a brief form such as RG11 / 4073 / 47 / 4.

I for one am awaiting the William Crowther death cert details with interest. Did he die before or after the census?

Sarah was widowed twice before she was 32 with at least 1 child, Jane and it is possible Jane was abandoned. Although Sarah's mother and 2 siblings are in the 1891 so why didn't they take in the child Jane? There is a Mrs S Crowther in the outgoing passenger lists but she sails after the 1891 census so she should be in it somewhere.

And to the crew... As Simone noted... Do we really have another vanishing Sarah Ellen?

DS

For dickiesam, Wm Crowther died in Jan quarter!! typical. I could have the wrong person of course. The cert was only ordered on 3rd Sept, and as I am in France I'm not likely to get it for a while.
Yes I had seen the mrs Crowther on passenger lists too.
Jane Williams is such a common name that finding a marriage is a nightmare. I have tried,found many possibilities, then gone to 1911 census to crosscheck, but there are too many.
On 1901 census there is no one in Liverpool that could be her, ie born in Oldham.
I will wait for the death cert and let you all know !
Thanks again

Kathy

Hi all,
Well I received 2 death certs this morning, one for the first husband who died when Jane was a baby. He was James Williams and was killed in a mining accident in 1880.
Unfortunately the certificate I ordered for William Crowther does not appear to be the correct one, predictably. He was in the workhouse and the death was recorded by his sister, who is not at all the one in my tree. I ordered for the wrong man!!
I will order yet another cert, as there are several William Crowthers dying in Oldham, very inconsiderate of them
Sorry
Kathy

Try contacting Oldham Register office direct so you can give them as much information as you can. They may or may not be prepared to help you but it's worth a try.

Too late, Hilary, I sent for another certificate immediately, I was so disappointed!

Talk about chucking money away
If this next one is wrong too, I may have to suppose that Wm Crowther didn't die in 1891, and that they emigrated!
Don't worry, I will get to the bottom of this!
Thanks for your support

Kathy

I now have the correct death certificate, or at least I am 99% sure.
He committed suicide, drowned in a mill lodge 'not of sound mind at the time' in Jan 1891
The address is given, but doesn't help, as I looked at the same address on 1891 census, and a different family was living there. This isn't surprising as most of the properties were rented to millworkers. There is of course no mention of who reported the death, but there was an inquest, which would have been reported in the local press.
I have contacted Oldham archives and they will look it up for me!
Fingers crossed, once again.
Kathy

Well done, I'm glad Oldham will do a bit of research for you as there is a great shortage of newspapers for Manchester in the online Old Newspapers site and I couldn't find any mention of William while searching them.

I had looked in the online newspapers too!

At last I have the coronor's report and newspaper articles. Sarah Ellen's husband, Wm Crowther comitted suicide in Jan 1891. I haven't found Sarah Ellen on 1891 census. When he died she was staying in Bolton. He was in Oldham.
She remarried in Bolton, Lancs in 1893. Her 3rd husband was Matthias Turton and he outlived her!
In 1901 they were in Bilston, Staffs, with an 'adopted' daughter, Betsey Painter, aged 9.
In 1911 , married for 33 yrs!! ( yes, but to 3 different men!)they had no offspring with them, but stated that they(or Sarah) had had 3 children, one still alive. Maybe this was our Jane Williams who is not to be found, still.
Betsy Painter, in 1911, was living with her married sister and family.
Sarah Ellen died in 1919 in Staffs and Matthias in 1930, also in Staffs.
All that is left now is to find Jane Williams and the saga is completed.

Kathy