Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Looking for a marriage of Edward Woods b.1866 to Phoebe ? b. 1864 the children I have for this marriage are Charles b. 1892 and James b. 1894 unfortunately I do not know Phoebe’s maiden name. I have them in the 1901 census living in Gill Street.
Thanks Linda

Drawn a blank, as obviously you have.

I hoped for a baptism of one of the children but also this was inconclusive.

I think the best you can do is request a copy of a birth certificate. For the likely years of 1892/3 there are only two entries, if however, they were a bit lenient with the dates you might need to spread the net wider. I would make enquiries with either the GRO or the Liverpool Register Office for a Charles Woods parent father Edward using the following references -
Q4 1892 W.Derby 8b 489
Q1 1893 Liverpool 8b 114 - this one is possibly more likely due to the location they were living in 1901

Before you do this have you found the 1911 census for the family giving the number of years they have been married and how many children have been born to the marriage. Looking at the free index I suspect they are living in Gt Newton Street, very close to Gill Street, Edward, Phoebe and James.
Lancashire, Liverpool, Abercrombie, 02, 390

Do you have details of her death? I don't see an entry for her, I am really suspecting that they weren't married and her death may have been registered under her maiden name. Any idea where they would have been buried? What religion were they?

I hope somebody else can come up with some suggestions.

Edward Woods married Phoebe Henry in 1902 so MAryA was right about them not being married. Funny in 1911 census it says married for 20 years!! go figure

Sept 1902 Edward Woods / Phoebe Henry Toxteth Park Lancashire 8b 438
this is the only marriage in liverpool that fits. (findmypast)

Ali

Could this be Phoebe in 1891, would explain why they married late as she had to get a divorce, but if it is her she must have left her children too.

11 Prince Albert Cottages, Upper Frederick Street, Liverpool

HENRY, Peter Head Married M 46 1845 Boot Top Closer ?Co Sligo Ireland
HENRY, Phoebe Wife Married F 33 1858 Lichfield England
HENRY, Phoebe Daughter Single F 10 1881 Scholar Liverpool England
HENRY, Margaret Daughter Single F 9 1882 Scholar Liverpool England
HENRY, Agnes Daughter F 5 1886 Scholar Liverpool England
HENRY, Martha Daughter F 3 1888 Liverpool England
HENRY, Thomas Son M 1 1890 Liverpool England (there is a death reference June 1891 West Derby 8b 449 if this is thomas maybe the death caused a crisis in the family)


There are no Phoebe Henrys in Liverpool in 1901 and no Peter either.

Ali

Could this be Phoebe in 1891, would explain why they married late as she had to get a divorce, but if it is her she must have left her children too.

Back then it would have been almost impossible for working class people to divorce without winning a lottery! It was extremely expensive, the petition having to be heard in London with representation by barristers etc. Divorce was a solution for upper middle-class and above.

What usually happened was one party left and set up home elsewhere with another 'spouse'. Sometimes they would marry bigamously, but that would be very difficult if they stayed in the same general area. The ideal solution was to wait until the 'deserted' spouse died then they could marry without let or hindrance. I'd say this would be the reason for at least 90% of 'late' marriages. It is definitely the case 3 times in my lot.

DS

Hi,
Thanks to you both, yes looks like I will have to get Charles Woods birth certificate and the 1902 marriage and take it from there. Hopefully with them and the info you have both given me I will get it sorted out.
Thanks Linda

Hold on Linda don't order anything yet. The marriage is Phoebe Henry to Thomas Smith and Edward Woods to Ellen Taylor. The Phoebe marriage appears to be on Ancestry's Liverpool RC records.

Blue

Ok thanks for letting me know, have to do a bit more searching then.
thanks Linda

Lancashire BMD marriages have these couples matched up that was my source. Find My Past and other sites have more than one possible match.

Blue

Phoebe Henry daugther of Peter Henry married Thomas Smith son of Thomas Smith on 22 July 1902 at St Patrick RC Church. Phoebe gave her address as 87 Gwendoline Street. The marriage is on www.ancestry.co.uk

This Phoebe looks to be Phoebe and Peter Henry's daughter.

The Henry family are at 87 Gwendoline St in 1901. Phoebe has been indexed as Charlie Hung (an alteration has already been sent). I have to say the enumerator's writing is terrible.

Now to find another Phoebe.

I have them in the 1901 census living in Gill Street.

in 1901 the family are actually at 3 House, 6 Court, Pembroke Street. The Gill Street reference is for the entry immediately above the Edwards' address.
RG13 - 3416 - 49 - 30.

I have scoured the marriage indexes every way and which way from 1882 to 1930 without finding an Edward Wood(s) marrying a Phoebe apart from that 1902 marriage for Phoebe Henry.

To add to the mystery, their child Charles [9 years old in the 1901] has died by the next census. Only their son James has survived. But I can't find a death for a Charles Wood(s) aged 9 to 19 between 1901 and 1911.

So I am thinking Edward and Phoebe were not married. The '20 years married' note in the last census was a porkie to conceal from the enumerator the fact that their son James was illegitimate. Seen that porkie a number of times! And Charles death was, for some reason, registered under Phoebe's 'maiden' name.

DS

Exactly my thoughts. I would suggest approaching the Liverpool Register Office about the birth certificate for young Charles, they are often more lenient than the GRO, suggest the names for the parents and give the two dates and districts I gave above.

If the parents aren't right they likely won't charge you.

Gut feeling says the children may well have been registered in Phoebe's name only since I don't think Charles death was registered under Woods.

Are you descended from James? Are there any relatives who might have any family stories? Has anybody ever heard of another surname in the family? worth asking a few cousins to see if there have ever been any whispers.

Amended Record Office to Register Office - what was I thinking!

I think you mean try Liverpool Register Office - the Record Office don't have birth certificates.

Tried another tack...
Unable to find a marriage up to 1970 decided to look for a death.
Phoebe Woods gave YoBs of 1864 and 1869 in the 1901 and later census. So looked for deaths between 1911 and 1970, all counties, with a YoB of 1865 +/- 5 years.

Found only 7, and only 2 of these were in Lancashire. None were in Liverpool [incl West Derby, Toxteth etc]. There were another 15 surname Wood, with 1 in Lancashire. I think her death may well have been registered under a 'maiden' name.

MaryA's suggestion of an approach for help to the Liverpool Register Office is a very good one.

DS

Hi,
Well thanks everyone, will try your suggestions. You say Charles has died by the 1911 census, if that is right then it must be the wrong family as Charles is the line I am following. He was in the army and I have just downloaded his records, his year of birth is down as 1891 On one of the pages it has as next of kin Charles Phoebe and James with a line through it and underneath that he is married (Mary Tomlinson ) I know this is definitely the right marriage. On the marriage certificate his fathers name is Edward. So I thought Charles may be a mistake or maybe his fathers name is Charles Edward, but can find neither. The other possibility is they have written the wrong family on his papers. The address on the army records and marriage cert are the same.
Linda

Is your Charles Wood the man with the regimental number as 10881 and in the King's Regiment? If so he joined up in 1910 so would be with the army probably overseas at the time of the 1911 census.

Hi,
Yes thats him, I have not looked at the 1911 census yet, he may well have been away.
thanks Linda

By me....

To add to the mystery, their child Charles [9 years old in the 1901] has died by the next census. Only their son James has survived. But I can't find a death for a Charles Wood(s) aged 9 to 19 between 1901 and 1911.

The census page written by Edward shows there were 2 children born with only one being still alive and that is James. In view of the Army papers content did the father Edward mis-read the instruction to be 'how many are at home' and how many have left' or deliberately write what he did to mean that to him Charles was as good as dead, no longer part of the family. Certainly fits with not finding a death between 1901 and 1911.

DS

Hi,
Yes it's hard to know really, I will just have to keep looking, and hopfully get it sorted out. I knew Charles's son George quite well, but he never knew his father. His mother brother and sister all killed in the blitz, and the father just disapeared! So not sure about Charles death either.
Linda