Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi, I am a new member and living in New Zealand. Have been researching my husband's Clampitt family in Liverpool. I am having problems locating death details of his gr-grandfather John Clampitt, b. 1834 in Parkgate, Cheshire. Family moved to Liverpool. John married Matilda in 1856. He was a sailmaker. His last child, Matilda Kate, I believe was born in 1870. His wife re-married Thomas Birkenhead in 1871 so I assume that John must have died 1870-71 but I have been unable to find his death record. Have found two John Clampitts listed that sort of fit his age but one was in Devon which I have ruled out (different wife's name in probate records) and the other one died in Kensington, London. I have been unable to find enough details to totally rule that one out. I am ruling out bigamy on Matilda's part as Thomas Birkenhead was a lawyer and surely he would not be a part to bigamy. Am ruling out divorce as well as in the 1891 census Matilda is back to using the Clampitt surname. She died in 1896.

I am thinking it might be helpful if I could find a cemetery record or an obituary but I do not know where to find those. Can anyone direct me? Any other ideas or information would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks! Glad to be a part of this forum.

Sharen

Hi Sharon, Welcome Aboard.
Always great to have another expat
I'm sure you will get lots of help when our Brit mates finish their
beauty sleep.
Warmies
Tina

for the peeps, John and his parents/sibs are easy to find in census.
Matilda was at 34 Blair St when she remarried 27 Nov 1871, St John Lpool, widow 32.
Her father listed as John Fordy, a rigger.

Hi Crew
Matilda Kate was baptised Lpool St Peter 8th Apr 1870
born 23 March 1870, address Tox Park
Father John sailmaker mother Matilda.
It doesn't say if he's deceased.

Tina

Thanks for your response. I am not an ex-pat Brit, I am American just researching my NZ husband's family. But I am an Anglophile!

Yes, I am thinking John must have died after Matilda Kate was born but before Matilda married Thomas Birkenhead in 1871. But where and how is the question and where was he buried?

Am wondering if it is possible that John Clampitt might be buried in the St. Peter's cemetery, although the St. Peter's church where they were married and where Matilda Kate was christened no longer exists. What would have happened to the cemetery?

Sharen

Hi Sharen
I think Thos B was a Sawyer not a Lawyer.
I'm saying this because Birkenhead family were in Garston at the Salt Works, my cuz & myself have done a lot of looking up, for a different branch and they were carpenters, from Leftwich Ches.

Tina

Added later: son George Birkenhead to first wife Sarah was baptised at
St Michael Lpool 10.10.1858 father occ Sawyer
(Sarah died aged 51? in 4th qtr 1870)

Sharen
Here is a link to a piece on the clearance of St Peter's graveyard in 1868.
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/stpete ... d1868.html

That was for the widening of Church Street, and there was perhaps another clearance before the church was demolished in 1922, if other graves had survived the first removal.

It would take a search of the burial register to find exact details of any interment - a long job, whether on microfilm, as is likely, or in the original if allowed. Someone here might know if there is an index.
D

Hi Daggers
Can't find a death for this chap, using soundex too.
Unless he vanished?
Matilda is widowed again by 1881 and I've had no luck finding death of her second hubby.
Cheers
Tina

Hi and welcome to the forum. There are many cemeteries and graveyards in Liverpool, it's not easy to find where somebody was buried. I will check my Gibsons when I get the chance to see if there might be a MI. I looked in the newspapers for an obituary, but only managed to find an entry for their marriage.

Births, Deaths, Marriages and Obituaries .
Liverpool Mercury etc (Liverpool, England), Saturday, December 27, 1856
Dec 22nd at St Michael's by the Rev. H Carpenter - John Clampitt to Miss Matilda Forsy

In view of the time elapsed between the birth of Matilda and the remarriage of her mother, it would make me wonder if indeed John Clampitt was her father ........

Have you checked the National Archives site for a possible divorce, although I agree it is probably unlikely, I would never rule out bigamy if the marriage had broken down.

On Ancestry in the Liverpool baptisms John and Matiulda show as having

Dates are years of baptism
Margaret Jane 1859, Georgina 1860, George 1861 No Name 1862 (I thibnk this is John Henry), James W 1864, Albert Edward 1867 and Matilda in 1870

Some of thier mmarriages are shown as well however unless they are asked if their father is deceased it may not show. John Henry in 1889 does say father John Clampitt father sailmaker deceased

The 1871 census shows Matilda as a sailmaker's wife

6 Roper St Toxteth Park
Matilda Clampitt H M 30 sailmaker's wife
Margaret daur 13, John son 10, James son 8, Albert son 3, Matilda 1

In a very short space of time about 8 months she remarries as a widow!

I wonder if he went on a ship and was lost?

It is possible John Clampitt, sail maker, actually did go to sea. If he did and died at sea, his death would still be recorded but he is not in the 'British Nationals died at sea' lists. If he was simply lost at sea his death could not be recorded in the absence of a body.

Because Matilda claims she is married in 1871 it is possible she didn't know where John was, so had he done 'a runner'? I wouldn't rule out bigamy on her part at all. And Thomas Birkenhead may have been a party to it as well, be he a lawyer or not. Lawyers weren't all upright examples of ethical and moral rectitude. Stranger things have happened. And as Tina pointed out he may have been a sawyer...

DS

PS: Daggers mentioned the clearance of the churchyard to make room for the widening of Church Street. My g.father was a cabbie for over 50 years in Liverpool and always referred to the cab-rank opposite the Tatler in Church Street as 'the boneyard'. In the good old days when cabbies knew Liverpool backwards, you only had to say 'to the boneyard' to be taken to Church Street.

Thanks to all of your for your input! Many good ideas! Tina, I have a legal background so read "Lawyer". I also checked street address from census records and they appear to have lived more in the central city which I think of as close to courts, etc. But my interpretation could be wrong. I didn't even know there was such a thing as a "sawyer"! And who was George Birkenhead?

No, I have not checked for possible divorce records as I did not know where to find them. Thanks, I will look.

Have found a death record of a Thomas Birkenhead in 1873 but I have no way of knowing if it is the correct Thomas Birkenhead. No luck finding any probate records either which I thought was a bit strange if he was in fact a lawyer - but as you say maybe he was a sawyer instead.

I am finding it frustrating looking for British records from the other side of the world. The available records give so little detail.

Yes, I thought of the possibility of him going to sea although I didn't think a sailmaker would do that. Many in his family were mariners.

Just wondering why, if he had done a runner or they had divorced, why Matilda would still use his surname on the 1891 census. Because they were still married?

Thanks everyone!

Sharen

Just looking over some of my records. Matilda and Thomas Birkenhead marriage details in 1871 show Matilda as a widow. I also have marriage records for some of the Clampitt children and only one in 1887 shows John Clampitt as deceased.


Sharen

Hi Sharen,
I think you can more or less rule out divorce as the reason for a possible split in the family in the late 1860s. Divorce back then was an incredibly expensive procedure. All English divorce actions were heard in the London High Court and involved barristers acting on behalf of the concerned parties. Divorce was out of the reach of working class families until some time, I believe, in the early 1920s when petitions could be heard in the local High Court and were a lot cheaper to pursue.

In addition to religious objections to divorce, the lack of access to divorce gave rise to many couples recorded in the census returns as husband and wife who were in fact not married to each other but to an 'absent' spouse.

Sometimes the marriage would take place many years later when the 'absent' spouse had died. On both my maternal and paternal lines I have such an instance.... A g.father, to whom my mother was born in 1908, who finally married my g.mother in 1925. That was 1 year after his legal but long-separated spouse had died; and a g.g.father who had my g.father in Ireland in 1864 and finally married the mother in Liverpool in 1885, 2 years after his 'wife' had died in Ireland.

DS

Or some of us could even quote a marriage where the first spouse didn't die until 50 years later!!!

MaryA wrote:Or some of us could even quote a marriage where the first spouse didn't die until 50 years later!!!

Oh indeed MaryA! I didn't mention that bigamy one because it wasn't my family!:roll:

DS

Such goings on!!!

Hi Sharen
I would say he was a sawyer, a woodsman.
To be a lawyer, he would have needed lots of family money and reached at least 30 before he was a small time partner in a firm in Lpool.
Lots of interesting info from the crew, will go back and re-read.
Tina

Thanks Mary about Forsey surname.
It was as I posted in prev page, listed as Fordey.

Tina

Something for your tree Sharen

Baptism 21st July 1867
Albert Edward Clampitt
son of John sailmaker & Matilda
Llanwrst St
Toxteth Park, St John the Baptist.
James Wm also baptised as above in 1864
Tina
Added there is a passport application to US for A.E father John.
Sorry my subs won't give details
1881 Albert Edwd is in Lpool Industrial School, Everton Terrace aged 15yrs.