Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

Hi guys!

Can anyone help me? If you lived in Liverpool in the early 1940's and were deported where would the records be stored. The Person Mohamed Ali Hassan or Hassan-Bello is deceased so would I be able to access his records?

Thanks
Ali

I thought it unlikely that someone would be deported during the course of the Second World War and that they would be more likely to be interned. However I have found this on the National Archives site so I'm wrong!

6. Deportations, Second World War
For the first two years of the Second World War, approximately 8000 enemy aliens were temporarily interned in British camps prior to being deported to the colonies and the dominions. Passenger lists survive for merchant vessels leaving British ports for ports outside Europe and the Mediterranean Sea in BT 27. These records are available to download from AncestorsOnboard, access is free onsite at The National Archives. The information given in BT 27 usually includes age, occupation, and (from 1922) a UK address of each passenger. (For further information on passenger lists consult the research guide Passenger lists 1878-1960).

These passenger lists are also on www.findmypast.co.uk

I would imagine any other records would be at the National Archives. Their catalogue under Home Office gives 2 entries for Bello. I only looked under this category.

Diamandi D Bello from Turkey naturalisation in 1855

M L Bello bn 2 Feb 1926 CLOSED papers for something occuring 1.1.1954 - 31.12.1955

Thanks Hilary

Will check them. Ali

The passenger lists the National Archives mention are on www.findmypast.co.uk as well

Thanks Again Hilary!

Lucked out on FMP whom I have a subscription for. He was a mariner but I couldnt find him on crew or passenger lists.

Ali

What was his nationality? How do you know he was deported?

Hi hilary

He was egyptian, and was listed on my (living 70yrs) relatives birth certificate at the same address as my relatives mother, same surnames but they definitely werent married. this was in 1941 and my relative said her mother told her her father was deported and her mother married as a spinster the following year.

This is what made me think if he was deported it had to be 1941 or early 1942. He is listed as deceased on her wedding certificate in 1961.

This is a very intriguing side of the family, everytime you solve anything another mystery appears, thanks for your reply. Ali

In 1901 Mohammed Ali Hassan is 17 bn Cairo foreign subject boarding
at Harrow. His house is "The Knoll"
Mr Smith asst Master at Harrow is in charge with his wife.
So many young men here from all over the place, plus servants.

Tina

perhaps he was thought of as a security risk? they packed him off to Egypt aboard a troop ship "in the brig"..

Now Lovely Tina! I love a bit of intrigue but think this guy is a bit too old, great find though ;D , where did you find it?

Ali

Hi folks,
Been following this thread with interest.
At the time of WW2 Egypt was a sort of 'protectorate' under the rule of the British and had been for many years. It was virtually a puppet state presided over by a puppet king, King Farouk.

http://www.touregypt.net/hbritish.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farouk_of_Egypt

Most deportations were done in the 2 years immediately following the outbreak of war after a period of internment in Britain. Your Mohamed Ali Hassan-Bello would only be deported if he was considered to be a German sympathiser and he would definitely not been sent to Egypt where the country was a hive of spies and counter-spies. More probably interned in Canada where I believe the majority of deportees were sent. Do you have any idea of his age in the early 1940s?

It does intrigue me as to why his name came to be on a birth certificate if he and the mother were not married. Normally he would have to attend the Registrar in person to 'admit' parentage and agree for his name to be on the cert. So here the couple obviously lied about their marital state which is why the mother's surname is shown as Hassan-Bello with her maiden name of Midghall? Lying about their 'condition' was a serious offence, so were the couple under pressure not to admit they were unmarried?

If he was known to be deceased in 1961 there must have been some later contact with a family member. With respect, I believe the 'deportation' story could be a family tale handed down to hide the true circumstances of his breaking off contact with the family and even leaving the area. Perhaps there was a family objection to a marriage to a 'dark-skinned foreigner', especially in war-time?

What was the father's occupation on the birth certificate?

DS

Hi DS
Good to hear from you, I was thinking the same as you that he moved away or went overseas. His occupation was Mariner, Merchant service, same address as his partner which was the same address on her marriage certificate in 1942 to someone else.

I dont understand the combination of their names and her taking her mothers maiden name as hers. Alice was dark due to her father being from phillipino so Nina would have been dark also with Phillipino and egyptian.

Will check passengers leaving for canada now though, Thanks again Dickiesam, Tina and Hilary I appreciate you taking the time to help out with this. Ali

Hi,
Given the strange circumstances relating to the birth registration when the parents lied about their status, I would suspect he was not deported. Having uncovered the truth behind several family 'stories' in my own lot, which were all plausible in their own right but inventions to fit the circumstances and cover up mistakes [of all kinds], embarrassments and/or stupidity etc, nevertheless... I now tend to think a little deeper instead of taking the story literally.

He was in the Merchant Navy, of no fixed abode as they say, and I believe there were family pressures at work here, to avoid both the stigma of illegitimacy and that of an unmarried mother. And there may well have been a clash of cultures if he was Muslim and the family C of E or RC.

Often times the working class had a much deeper sense of morals and 'face-saving' in their close-knit communities than did the middle and upper classes. I think that once the birth was registered and there were no problems with the Registrar, the father may have been told to be on his way.

Because he was probably not a British subject his death will not be recorded in the GRO. You might find him listed in the Merchant Navy records but that could be a long slog.

DS

Hi C.B
I found him in Anc##
Educated at Harrow, the family must have been well off to send him to UK for his education.
Sorry he's too old for your man.
Interesting though, keep to one side I reckon.

Tina

Maybe he just got on another ship and continued working on ships all his life. There were many seamen of many nationalities on board ship. He may not even have been Egytian! Maybe from a bit further east. If she said she was married when the child's birth was registered I don't think the father would have to be present. It sounds a very practised story using a double barrelled surname of his and hers and then her mother's maiden name as hers. Someone has thought that out!

What name did she go on to marry under?

Hi Hilary
She married as a spinster under her surname Bello

Ali

Is it just a coincidence that there is a Bello/Midghall marriage in 1916?

Custo[e]dic Bello to Mary V Midghall Q1 1916 Liverpool 8b 56

RE:

If she said she was married when the child's birth was registered I don't think the father would have to be present. It sounds a very practised story using a double barrelled surname of his and hers and then her mother's maiden name as hers. Someone has thought that out!

I think Hilary has hit the nail on the head. It is a tangled web that has been well-woven to deceive everyone yet provide an 'elegant' solution to an illegitimate birth. Add the 'deportation' word to the mix and there's a mother being deprived of her spouse and father to her child by the circumstances of the war. As Hilary said, a very practised story... probably evoking considerable sympathy. It would have to be if the mother was not going to bring up the child herself.

DS

Possibly nothing to do with this thread except coincidence of forename, surname and occupation.... Could Aham be Ali on that birth cert? Both Mohamed and Hassan are as common in Arabic as are John Smith and Robert Evans in England and Wales.

From the CWGC site..

Name: HASSAN, MOHAMED AHAM
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Fireman and Trimmer; Service: Merchant Navy.
Vessel: S.S. Margot (London)
Age: 20; Date of Death: 23/05/1942; Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead.
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 68; Memorial: TOWER HILL MEMORIAL

DS

DS

What a find, she didnt marry until august 1942 so this could be him. Hilarys and your comments make such sense, especially if Alice had to give up her daughter after Mohamed left her or died in 1942.

Alices daughter has a family friend helping her to see if there are any surviving records from her going to Olive Mount as a baby. If there are records it may have the reason she had to go there.

Thanks Again! Guys!
Ali

MaryA wrote:Is it just a coincidence that there is a Bello/Midghall marriage in 1916?

Hi Mary

Custo[e]dic Bello to Mary V Midghall Q1 1916 Liverpool 8b 56

They were Alices parents and my living relatives grandparents

Ali