Liverpool & South West Lancashire FHS - Forum

I have reached a brick wall in researching my 3 times ggrandfather Patrick Riley the earliest record being the 1861 census when he and his family were living at 48 Johnson Street Liverpool. Although there are Patrick Rileys in the 1841 and 1851 census there is no certainty they are the person I am looking for.
I have therefore looked at the Griffiths Valuations and there is a Patrick Riley listed in the Parish of Killoran (County Galway) who might be the right age.I have looked at Roots Web but there are many Patrick Riley marriages and other listings but each search costs 5 euros.
Does anyone know of a cheaper source? I know this is the same old problem with Irish records but any help will be gratefully received.

Hi Riley,
Have you checked the actual census summary page, not just the transcription, for every census Patrick and his wife are in up to their deaths? You will sometimes find additional clues as to origin that didn't make it to the transcribed record.

For the crew the 1861 sighting is at RG09 Piece 2667 Folio 31 Page 56.

It is also useful to look for relatives as distinct from actual family as in sons and daughters etc. In-laws and aunts/uncles etc may have their town or county listed. The apparent absence of the family from the 1851 and earlier suggests they didn't arrive in England until after April 1851 as searching for his wife and the children drew a blank. Given Patrick is an employer of 2 men and 2 boys indicates to me that he probably arrived in the early 1850s.

I think tracing the births/baptisms of either of the 2 children, Thomas and Ellen, would be a better option. On the Roots Ireland site at http://wicklow.rootsireland.ie/ the search facility for births/baptisms allows for inputting parents names. That usually results in a lot fewer hits to spend money on.

The free CLDS FamilySearch site might have something http://www.familysearch.org/ENG/search/ ... search.asp

Have you followed the children as far as the 1911? That usually gives a more detailed origin than earlier censuses.

Dickiesam

Hi D.S
Thanks for 1861 census.
Everyone born in Ireland including Ellen their youngest aged 16 yrs dressmaker.
Tina

Thank you for these suggestions which I shall follow up. I have family history from 1861 cenus to 1911 but unfortunatley known of them state a place in Ireland that the family came from.

Hi

did Ellen marry a Sweeney ?????

Yes Colette, Ellen married John Sweeney but I have not been able to trace their marriage. I cannot find the marriage in English BMD's and I have applied to Family Search for a microfiche of Irish marriage records but they seem to have lost it! He was born in Donegal and died 9th November 1918 and Ellen 14th December 1927. Both are buried in Yew Tree Lane Cemetery.
I have extensive info on the family through census returns but lack the marriage which could have given me valuable info. Any suggestions?

Hiya

was wondering where are Patrick & Elizabeth in 1871 ??? could it be they went home to Ireland and this is how Ellen met John Sweeney.

Also saw another child for this couple named Agnes Eleanor born 1886 baptised St John died 1886.

If John was from Donegal maybe thats where the Riley's are from..

On all the census's after 1861 Ellen says she was born in Liverpool..i know when people have been in a place that long they say they are born there..maybe thats what it is with Ellen..

What happened to brother Thomas ???

xx

I do not know where Patrick and Elizabeth were in 1871 but Thomas married Isabella Lily West in St Peter's Church,Dublin on 1 November 1870. Neither Patrick nor Elizabeth signed the marriage certifcate. Thomas and Isabella's address is given as 11 Denzille Street, Dublin (which we have visited) but it appears to have been an accommodation address.
There is a Patrick and Bessy Riley on the 1871 census living at 59 Gildarts Gardens.liverpool but the ages are wrong and I have discounted them.
The 1861 census is the only one that lists the children as being born in Ireland all subsequest ones say they were born in Liverpool. Since I have not been able to trace their births in England I have always regarded the 1861 census as being correct as it is the earliest.
Thank you for the info on the baby which I did not know about. She was Agnes Eleanor whcih has made me think perhaps Ellen's correct name was Eleanor.
I have searched Donegal records for John Sweeny but could not find him.

As suggested by dickiesam I have spent some money on searching Rootsweb (for all of Ireland) to trace the birth/baptism) of Ellen and Thomas children of Patrick and Elizabeth Riley . Came up with an Ellen Reiley baptism 13 May 1849 (approximately corret year) in Parish of Buttevant county Cork father Patrick Reily mother Elizabeth Bitchen (correct first name) .Using advance search for brother Thomas came up with nothing matching.

There is no proof that this baptism of Elizabeth Reily is the one I am looking for. Dead end again!

Hi Riley,
Have to say I wouldn't regard your finding of a baptism of an Ellen Riley to parents Patrick and Elizabeth [nee Bitchen] as being a dead end. It's a piece of a jigsaw that doesn't fit yet except that it fits with the right parents names as far as we can see and the date is about right. If it was my find I would be encouraged and look for a marriage for the parents and a baptism for Thomas, maybe outside Cork.

In later life, in censuses and at her marriage, what was the total age or year of birth span for Ellen? From when to when? On the 1861 it says 1845; the baptism is 1849. I, like most of the crew, have encountered birth years differing by as much as 5 years or more. I've a g.father who, if you believed 2 censuses, 3 marriage certs and a death cert was born any time between 1875 and 1886. His actual birth year, according to his birth cert, was 1879.

And have to add that in family genealogical research there is rarely any definitive proof that a person is who you think they might be, especially when you are dealing with a paucity of records as in pre-1864 Ireland. Accept what you find and then work to fill the gaps. Back to the jigsaw!

I find it strange that a presumably RC family would only have 2 children. Were any born in England but didn't survive to 1861? Worth doing a rough analysis of Bs an Ds 1851 to March 1861? Elizabeth was only 44 at the census.

DS

Hi

I am also wondering why DUBLIN could it be this is where they were from and went home to spend some tine with other family members.. after being in Liverpool a while and a little money in their pocket..
Whilst there their children must have met their partners if Thomas married there maybe Ellen.

Also wondering if there are more children for this couple or is it another case of alot of babies died..


xx

Yes the family do seem to have decamped to Dublin in the 1870's and I also wondered why there were only two children from the marriage of Patrick and Elizabeth. Ellen's date of marriage would have been roughly 1865/70 but I cannot trace it in English or Irish online records I have searched Dublin but no joy. It is such a pity because I have everything for her except place of birth and place and date of marriage. I read somewhere that there was a lot of labour problems in Liverpool docks in the 1870's. Perhaps this is why they went to Dublin.
Dickiesam suggested I search the whole of Irland for a matching baptism of Thomas to prove the Ellen I found was the right one but again no joy. For Thomas I have everthing except place o birth.